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CORBY TRIAL
It’s not looking good for Schapelle Corby:
The chief judge in the Schapelle Corby case has said it is “true” Corby admitted a bag containing 4.1 kilograms of marijuana was hers, according to a court translator.
Judge Linton Sirait has begun his summing up to a courtroom packed with media, family and onlookers.
Corby, 27, is answering three charges. She faces the death penalty if convicted of importing a narcotic, a maximum of life imprisonment for transiting a drug, and a maximum of 10 years’ jail for possession.
Live updates here.
UPDATE. Corby’s sentence: 20 years.
UPDATE II. Age readers suggest a Bali boycott, among other reactions.
UPDATE III. At the News forum: “This case brings an interesting incident to mind. My girlfriend’s cousin from California was detained by customs at Sydney Airport on New Years’ Eve after finding cannabis in her luggage. After being detained for several hours she was let off with a warning and allowed to enter the country. Apparently the incident was not recorded against her passport. Interesting times ...”
UPDATE IV. Courtroom scenes.
UPDATE V. This is weird: “Both the defence and prosecution teams in the Schapelle Corby case say they will appeal her 20-year sentence.”
UPDATE VI. “Schapelle Corby has been found guilty by a Bali court of importing a narcotic into Indonesia, sentenced to 20 years in jail and fined $13,875.”
UPDATE VII. “Schapelle Corby’s Indonesian lawyer said she did not understand why the judges in the case rejected all the evidence presented in her defence.”
UPDATE VIII. “None of the three judges presiding over Schapelle Corby’s trial has ever found a defendant innocent … ”
And the left cheered. Only a death penalty would have made them feel even better.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 26 at 11:45 PM • permalinkTwo comments from the SMH’s coverage:
Scheppelle is innocent (must be Margo doing the typing)!” the supporter said. The family has said justice has not been done.
It could have been a lot, lot worse.
Prime minister John Howard said earlier today: ``I do ask the Australian people to accept and understand that when Australians go abroad they are subject to the justice system of the countries they visit. ``Just as when foreigners visit our country they are subject to our justice system. ``Just as we would resent the leaders of other countries telling us how to run our justice system, we must accept and understand that the leaders of other countries would resent us telling them how to conduct and run their justice system.’’
A point that the left would be wise to remember given their shrieks over Howards’ comments to Asian nations.
Another point worth remembering is that, in Indonesia, you can murder 88 Australians and only get 3.5 years.
At best the Investigation into Corby was bungled from start to finish and she gets 20 years?
Buggered if I’d visit Indonesia.
Posted by Harry Buttle on 2005 05 27 at 12:04 AM • permalinkIn response to Habib’s casual conclusion of Corby’s guilt, I have a few questions:
* Why would someone transport drugs from Australia (where they are relatively expensive) to Bali, where they are dirt cheap, the place being awash with them, with pushers all over the place? (Doesn’t it strike you odd that the Bali Nine are accused of sending drugs in the other direction?)
* Would anyone in their right mind transport drugs in a totally flimsy, unlocked boogie board bag? Even the Bali Nine (an entirely different group to Corby) went to the trouble of secreting their cargo.
* Why didn’t the Indonesian authorities take fingerprint and DNA samples from the marijuana bag (not the boogie board bag itself) - this is simply amazing. If Corby’s fingerprints had been found on the bag it would have been absolutely damning, if someone else’s had been found, and they could be traced to a crim in Australia we would have known almost positively that she was innocent. The Indonesian authorities have given the most pathetic excuses as to why this was not done “She admitted guilt, so there was no need” - no she did NOT admit guilt, your officials either did not understand her language, or simply did not want to uncover anything that would hinder a straightforward guilty verdict.
* WHy didn’t they videotape the initial interview? - it is someone’s life at stake for goodness sake - then we could see for sure exactly what Corby did say, in her own language.
* The head Judge, Mr Sirait, has boasted hearing hundreds of cases and never finding anyone innocent, doesn’t that strike Habib as strange? Not even one? What is the point of having trials?
Regardless of whether Corby is innocent (as I believe) or guilty as Habib has breathtakingly concluded, any Australian who has gone to Indonesia without totally locked luggage (and that includes me) could have wound up in exactly the same situation as Corby. I’m damn sure I’ll never go there again.
* Why would someone transport drugs from Australia (where they are relatively expensive) to Bali, where they are dirt cheap, the place being awash with them, with pushers all over the place? (Doesn’t it strike you odd that the Bali Nine are accused of sending drugs in the other direction?)
1. There is a market for expats selling dope to tourists and other expats. It’s safer since alot of ‘dealers’ are actually undercover cops.
2. The quality of dope varies significantly and regular users are quite pedantic.
3. There was a shortage of it in Bali recently due to several large plantation raids.
* Would anyone in their right mind transport drugs in a totally flimsy, unlocked boogie board bag? Even the Bali Nine (an entirely different group to Corby) went to the trouble of secreting their cargo.
There are many criminals who do dumber things than that.
What the media really think she is, is irrelevant, always has been. The entire point of this thing was to sabotage relations.
After the tsunami/earthquake and then the Seaking, everyone got very close. A conservative government being best mates with Indonesia goes against everything the left believes, that Howard is racist and that Australia is racist.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 27 at 12:25 AM • permalinkUtter bullshit. She was caught with 4kg of dope in her bag. She would have gone down in an Australian court.
Utter bullshit (to borrow your fragrant language). An Australian prosecution would have to prove that the marijuana bag was actually hers and that she was responsible for it being in her luggage. They would use such forensic evidence as fingerprinting and DNA analyis to establish that. Interviews would be videotaped and could be checked if there was a language problem.
There is no way, on the available evidence, she would have been found guilty by an Australian court. Maybe you should go and read a few Australian drug trial transcripts.
The same Court also found the Bali bombers guilty and sentenced them to death. No one in Australia complained when that verdict came down, few claims of a corrupt legal system then
It’s stunning to see such moronic logic on a public forum (Margo’s webdiary excluded). The Bali bombers were accused of killing over 100 people, and those directly responsible admitted their guilt, never even trying to hide the fact. The probable godfather, who should have received the most severe sentence of all, got off with a slap on the wrist. How can you possibly compare that case with the Corby one?
You seem to be saying that just because I find the Corby verdict deeply troubling, I must dispute every verdict in an Indonesian court, even when accused people admit their guilt!
Breathtaking!
Something that’s been pissing me off for a long time, the arguement that “who would smuggle drugs TO Bali” is completely moronic. The fact is, they were, whether it was Corby or corrupt baggage handlers or whatever, they went to Bali, where they were found.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 27 at 12:40 AM • permalinkThe verdict on the Gerbil of Death was correct, the penalty bollocks. The evidence on the more majotr charge was scant, however. I’ve had 16 years in narcotic law enforcement in Australia, so I think I might know what I’m talking about; if the statement of the Indonesian Customs officer is correct, she made admissions at the baggage counter. Certainly it should have been recorded (and preferably video’d), but as I said on the last thread, the offence in Indonesia is an absolute- if it’s in your baggage or on you, it’s yours- the onus to prove otherwise is on the defendant. the Australian Customs Act was almost identical until about ‘83/‘84, where the proviso knowingly or recklessly was inserted; even with this, I’d say the DPP would have run the brief here, and unless she could produce some hard evidence rather than hearsay (inadmissable) that the gear had been stashed by others, she’d be convicted. The fact that the check-in weight the whole was was consistent is damning in any case, and how anyone could not notice that a 500gm 5cm boogie board had suddenly had a steroidal expansion to 5kg and about 50cm beggars belief. I don’t agree with the size of the penalty (personally I think drugs should be legalised and taxed like booze and durries) but this is irrelevant- the offence was committed in Indonesia, and thus subject to their penalty regime. Easy to avoid- don’t cart naughty vegetation or prohibited powder.
The fact is, they were, whether it was Corby or corrupt baggage handlers or whatever, they went to Bali, where they were found.
Sorry this ‘arguement’ has been pissing you off, pity you didn’t use your brain to work it out. Evidence was presented that corrupt baggage handlers were using passenger luggage to transport drugs between Australian cities, and someone didn’t (or probably couldn’t) remove the drugs at Sydney airport. The certainly didn’t intend for them to go on to Bali.
Given what we now know about the baggage handlers at Sydney Airport it doesn’t seem very unlikely.
Thank you Habib - you’re one of the few contributers of good sense. Keep it up.
Posted by walterplinge on 2005 05 27 at 12:48 AM • permalinkThe baggage handlers at SKSA were involved in importation of cocaine, and have previously come to light for heroin imports. Irrelevant in this case. Grass is usually moved interstate by convoys or cars and trucks, often run by motorcycle gangs- there are regular operations on the Qld/NSW border. No-one bothers with 5kg lots, except users. Anyway, this evidence is irrelevant to the matter in Bali, and was regarded as so by the court.
Wombatas, if somebody arrived at an Australian airport with 4kg of cannabis in a boogie board they would be charged and tried under s.233B of the Customs Act. Under that section all the prosecution has to prove is the physical element of the offence, ie. that the person had possession of the cannabis. They would not have to prove that the marijauna bag was actually hers. Nor would they have to prove that she was responsible for it being in her luggage.
Maybe you should go and read the Customs Act, and the decision of the High Court in R v Nicholas [1998] HCA 9, where the court affirmed the right of the Parliament to make such draconian laws.
She would have gone down in an Australian court on the evidence presented to the Indonesian one.Evidence was presented that corrupt baggage handlers were using passenger luggage to transport drugs between Australian cities
1. Tripe! That was not evidence it was hearsay about hearsay and the source was a convicted felon. That ‘evidence’ would not even be aloowed to be heard in an Australian court.
2. What kind of a c*ckhead would smuggle dope between Brisbane and Sydney on a friggin airplane?! Who the hell would put drugs through security when a smuggler could put in under his car seat and drive it to Sydney. For fucksakes are you that stupid that you actually believe that bollocks!?!
Hmmm.
The moral of this story:
1. Don’t transport drugs.
2. Don’t transport drugs to third world countries.
3. Don’t transport drugs to third world countries with large muslim populations.
4. Don’t carry any luggage that can’t be locked securely.
5. Don’t go to Indonesia.
Posted by memomachine on 2005 05 27 at 01:20 AM • permalinkMr Sirait, who must the the Balinese version of the infamous hanging Judge Jeffreys is unlikely to break his record of 500 not out for the sake of a Australian female.
Corby never stood a chance from day one.
There is not the slightest proof that she had possession of the pot when she began her journey.
No fingerprints on the plastic bag
no video coverage from Australia
no video coverage at Denpasar Airport.
At worst she is guilty of possession.
And twenty years for possession is shameful.
Unless you carry hand luggage, you should not be held liable for its contents as it leaves your supervision.
the fault lies with the baggage handling system at it’s lack of documentation
and record keeping.1. Tripe! That was not evidence it was hearsay about hearsay and the source was a convicted felon. That ‘evidence’ would not even be aloowed to be heard in an Australian court.
No not a convicted felon. An accused (yet to be tried) prisoner. Oh, but I forgot! ALL accused are guilty in the Murph universe!
She was convicted of posession, not imprtation. Re the Californian let go from sydney, she must have had a very small amount- a joint perhaps. We used to try to let such items go with a warning in Brisbane, mainly because the penalty wouldn’t justify the time involved to prepare a brief, go to court etc, but it was finally up to the AFP portswatch who had final jurisdiction; I used to often have to put the bag on junior officers who wanted a prosecution notch. Not likely with 4 keys.
No not a convicted felon. An accused (yet to be tried) prisoner
I made a mistake in assuming John Ford had been convicted. However, Mr Ford’s testimony was not evidence - it is hearsay on hearsay. What he said is not even admissible in an Australian court. Especially from somebody who was not even remotely connected to anybody involved in the case.
ALL accused are guilty in the Murph universe
You’re a jerk.
2. What kind of a c*ckhead would smuggle dope between Brisbane and Sydney on a friggin airplane?! Who the hell would put drugs through security when a smuggler could put in under his car seat and drive it to Sydney. For fucksakes are you that stupid that you actually believe that bollocks!?!
The point made is, I think, that the drugs DIDN’T go through security if they were planted by baggage handlers.
Utter bullshit (to borrow your fragrant language). An Australian prosecution would have to prove that the marijuana bag was actually hers and that she was responsible for it being in her luggage. They would use such forensic evidence as fingerprinting and DNA analyis to establish that. Interviews would be videotaped and could be checked if there was a language problem.
Have a look at the first Letter to the Editor in Melbourne’s “The Age” <www.theage.com.au> to-day (Friday) re some Japanese who were convicted in Australia for importing drugs.
Posted by pog-ma-thon on 2005 05 27 at 02:06 AM • permalinkomfg
Well, murph, do you mean by that? How DOES airport security work at Australian airports for staff? I just want to understand more what happened. I am not convinced that enough evidence was collected to convict Ms Corby (well, in Australia, anyway). I don’t really think she is stupid and you’d have to be a moron to take coals to Newcastle.
I know there was a lot of hearsay, it’s a shame that the people who found drugs in their luggage on arrival in Indonesia (or wherever) didn’t officially report it to the Australian authorities on their return home. (Fat lot of good that would have done, though.)
I understand that in the adversarial court system you must create doubt, but it hasn’t worked in the Indonesian court system. I think that she would have been found guilty no matter what, the judges had made up their mind at the start.
Probably a good thing I am not a magistrate!
One thing I’m curious about: people are debating as to whether an Australian could sell the weed at a profit to other Australians in Bali, but my question would be - did anyone look at her bank account? I mean, she’s a beauty school student. Maybe it’s different south of the equator, but where I live, beauty school students tend not to be rolling in cash. Over four kg of weed would have had to set her back by a really noticeable amount, possibly a third to half of a year’s income. So…did her bank account take a hit? If it didn’t, are we supposed to believe that she got friends to invest in this weed-to-Bali venture with her? (And if she’s smart enough to do that, surely she’s smart enough to maybe hide it a little better).
I’m a little dubious of the the customs officer saying “she admitted it” at the airport; it sounds like what he did was ask “Is this your bag?” and she admitted THAT. I don’t know about you, but if I were knowingly shuttling drugs into a third-world country, first of all, I’d lock my bag, second of all, I wouldn’t put a name tag on it, third of all, if someone from officialdom asked me ANYTHING out of the ordinary re said bag, I’d deny having anything to do with it. (Don’t know if her bag had a label on it, but it wasn’t locked, apparently).
And it’s true that criminals do stupid things, but that can’t be used as a catchall to explain why she wouldn’t hide the stuff, why she wouldn’t lock the bag, why she’d put it in a bag where the weight would be really noticeable…I’m not saying it isn’t possible, but I’d be a little more convinced if they’d maybe done a few rudimentary forensics.
BTW- all of you who’ve been barracking for Ms Corby because you think she’s a bit of a hornbag, just consider what she’s going to look (and sound) like when she gets out of the slot.
Ownership of the bag is one of the main elements of the offence. You’re running around in circles- all the conjecture in the world over ownership of the hooch doesn’t alter the fact she was detained in posession of bag containing the gear, and apparently admitted ownership of the bag. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
(Do collect 20 years and a 14K fine, however).Its not the first time.
AN INNOCENT MULE
Steve, a Melbourne man, has no idea whether a baggage handler or someone else messed with his bag in 1997, but he knows what he found when he got to Bali: a bag of marijuana, the size of a loaf of bread, packed tight. For seven years this was a strange but historic relic from his travelling past.
And then came Corby. Steve and his wife went public, telling Channel Nine that on finding the drugs when they got to their Bali hotel, they called the Australian consulate for advice. They were told to flush it down the toilet. “If you get caught with that, mate, you’ll be eating nasi goreng for the rest of your life,” he says he was told.
Steve - who went public the day Ford appeared at Corby’s trial - says he tried to flush the dope, but failed. He sprinkled it around the hotel garden. The Department of Foreign Affairs confirms the travellers did call the vice-consul. Steve is adamant there is only one place the drugs could have been planted: the airport. “The only time my suitcase was out of my sight was when it was on the plane and on the carousel at the airport.”
What happened to Steve’s bag once it left the check-in counter eight years ago will never be known.
Habib
so are you going to have a party tonite to celebrate??? you really shouldn’t contain your obvious glee to a message board - Invite some friends over - have a barbie - spread the joy mate
Posted by knuckleheadwatch on 2005 05 27 at 02:40 AM • permalinkWho said I was pleased with the verdict, or sentence? I’ve only said that based on the evidence I’ve seen, it was correct in law. Whether the law is correct is not the argument. Had a similar event occurred on my watch while I was in the job here, we would have prosecuted, and I believe a conviction would be highly likely. Penalty would be possibly 5 yrs without a guilty plea, reduced to 12 months-2 years with good behaviour, 4 kgs is a trafficable quantity- it would need to be 20kg or over to be a commercial quantity which would warrant up to 10 years and 250K; from experience, cannabis in quantities of over a ton rarely attract 10 yrs. Only presenting the facts, and an informed opinion. I disagree with repatriation of convicts, however- I think any sentence assigned should be served in the jurisdiction where the offence was committed. Equity and all that, don’t you know.
are you going to have a party Murph - you sound pretty happy about this
Posted by knuckleheadwatch on 2005 05 27 at 02:52 AM • permalinkI have heard about these camels, and their toes, which apparently are ticklish?
http://www.camel-toe.net/The idea of boycotting Bali is foolish. What do Indonesian judges care if a few thousand peasants lose their jobs in the tourist industry? It will change nothing and hurt the poor of Bali even more.
Posted by blandwagon on 2005 05 27 at 02:56 AM • permalinkBattlestarGallactica
Read what I have said, don’t try and demonise me because I am sayin gthings which you don;t want to hear.
I am not happy. I don’t think that drug trafficking should even be an offence. I feel very, very sorry for her.
BUT…
That does not take away from the fact that she was most likely guilty as charged.
The idea of boycotting Bali is foolish. What do Indonesian judges care if a few thousand peasants lose their jobs in the tourist industry? It will change nothing and hurt the poor of Bali even more.
Nope. It’s the equivalent a bunch of children, denied lollies, holding their breath until they turn blue.
I’m seriously conflicted here and I’m almost never conflicted. On the one hand, I’d bet a month’s pay she’s guilty and at the age of 27, the foolish youth defense won’t wash. I was a consul for almost 20 years looking after our fellow citizens in third world prisons, mostly they were in for drug offenses, and I have to say they were without exception guilty as sin. There were some sentences handed out that were harsh, unjust even,—one guy did seven years essentially because he was a smart-ass. There’s reasonable doubt in Corby’s case and in a western country she would have gotten off—but this is not a western country. What would I do if it were my daughter. Well I’d pay whatever bribes are required to get her the hell out of there and then I’d then I’d thrash her within an inch of her life.
Thanks for the info Habib. What I find particularly irritating is the argument that a developing nation, Indonesia should spend it’s limited resources on state of the Art policing equipment, presumably only so that Australians aren’t at risk of possibly unfair prosecution. I assume that the same concern for Indonesians doesn’t exist, not even the most aggressive supporter could suggest that videos, Indonesia wide IT for the police etc should be bought at the cost of schools and hospitals.
I also find the argument that those Indonesian officials conspired and lied to get her very offensive.
Any explanations for why they would have lied on offer. Or why the Indonesians with major drug abuse problems should make their priority first world policing, as if there is no justice otherwise. And try and remember that they put a huge effort and resources and co-operation into chasing the Bali bombers. That they didn’t have access to retrospective law to convict them and that their courts ruled so demonstrates the justice of their system, not a failing. Or do my fellow Australians want to be put at risk of retrospective laws themselves. If I was Indonesia I would be tempted to introduce a loud offensive western women shouting abuse in our courts law and charge retrospectively.
I think we can expect the “I didn’t put it there someone else did and me having it doesn’t count “excuse to come up fairly regularly in Australian courts, just as long as the crims remember to wear gloves. Be interesting to see if the Australian justice system finds it a sufficient defence.
And is the argument that hearsay should be available to the defence but not to the prosecution.
I got around to reading the Bulletin today. And heard Alexander Downer pointing out that Schapelle had been offered 2 experienced QC’s to assist with her defence. Why didn’t the silly girl take up the offer, rather than the contributions seeking Bakir’s services. One can only hope that she and her family dump Mr Bakir. He has done her no good but has certainly got a lot of publicity for whatever company he is currently running. And whose money is he offering as a reward, considering the vast amounts he owes. And even those silly Indonesians can work out that stories for which vast sums have been paid are less than reliable.
I was impressed by Schapelle’s courage and strength, but that doesn’t make her innocent. I was also impressed by the Indonesian judge’s lack of malice in her sentencing. And screams of how disgusting doesn’t alter the fact that she got a light sentence by Indonesian standards for a crime that they abhor.Habib said:
“I’ve had 16 years in narcotic law enforcement in Australia, so I think I might know what I’m talking about; if the statement of the Indonesian Customs officer is correct, she made admissions at the baggage counter.”
LMFAO@this naive bullshit statement.
I’ve had 10 years experience in the Defence Intelligence community and I can tell you right now how rife the systemic corruption is from the top right down to the bottom in Indonesia.
For you to trust the words of an Indonesian Customs Officer based on your supposed experience in narcotics law enforcement (which BTW sounds suspicious) is ludicrous. Anybody with experience in policing and intelligence in Australia know how corrupt the Indonesian system is. I don’t think you have ever served in ‘narcotics law enforcement’ at all. I think you are trolling us.
Posted by MichaelParkes on 2005 05 27 at 03:31 AM • permalinkEd writes:
4. Don’t carry any luggage that can’t be locked securely
I hope you aren’t planning travel to the US.
The Transport Security Administration (TSA) will break open locked bags and recommends you use a ‘TSA approved lock’ to which they (and the criminal element) has a key.Posted by Indy Media Watch on 2005 05 27 at 03:36 AM • permalinkCould have been more helpful Murph
An inquisitorial system is a legal system where the court or a part of the court is actively involved in determining the facts of the case, as opposed to an adversarial system where the judge’s role is that of an impartial referee (except for questions of law) and the prosecution (or plaintiff in civil cases) and defendant plead their case before a jury who determines the facts of the case; though in some adversarial systems it is the judge who is both the trier of fact and law.
Inquisitorial- The judge hears witnesses and suspects and orders searches or other investigations. The goal of the juge d’instruction is not the prosecution of a certain person, but the finding of truth, and as such his duty is to look both for incriminating and exculpating evidence
The judges summary addressed the incriminating and exculpating evidence.
Europe pretty wel inquisitorial. Anglo’s pretty well adversarial.Ros:
to say that there is corruption in the Indonesian justice system is not to say that the witnesses in this case were lying. If you think they were, why and who was paying them
The Indonesian customs process behind Corby being caught with the bag was amateurish and incompetent. Then followed the events of the Indonesians denying AFP specialists access to do testing. It’s a blatant cover up of Indonesian incompetence. It’s dishonest and goes against the natural state of justice. That is corruption. Your skewed view of what is and isn’t corruption has nothing to do with paying people off. It has more to do with somebody not doing their job and then the Indonesians covering the faux pas up and stating “Nothing to see here move along..”
Posted by MichaelParkes on 2005 05 27 at 04:01 AM • permalink20 years is a dreadful waste of prime poontang, regardless of her guilt or innocence. However anyone who goes holidaying in muslim countries has obviously never heard of Charles Darwin.
Regarding the “possession is nine-tenths of the law” aspects and whether she would have been found guilty in Australia, a colleague of mine did time on a jury at a drugs trial last year. Basically the case involved the police stopping four lebs in a car with a bag of drugs on the floor between them. At the trial the lebs all blamed each other (amazingly they didn’t blame the Jews or American imperialism) and denied all knowledge of the drugs. Apparently they were just on their way to McDonald’s at 11pm, honest I swear, your honour. However when the guy in the front passenger seat saw the cops coming, he threw the bag out the window into some bushes. By doing this he was apparently claiming de facto possession of the drugs, and was accordingly (as per the Judge’s instructions) the only one who could be found guilty. My colleague told me that, based on the legal argument submitted at the trial, the lebs would all have got off scot free if they had left the drugs on the floor of the car and all denied knowledge. Now, how is an Australian airport different to a car on a road in Sydney?
Posted by Jim Geones on 2005 05 27 at 04:09 AM • permalinkMy observations on “Big Brother Bali” (that’s what this thing has become):
1. The “coals to Newcastle” thing is bullshit. Hydroponic marijuana gets a much better price in Bali than it does in Australia - something like 400% better - because of its much higher quality and the “safety” of not buying from a Balinese or Indonesian, who could be an informer of undercover police officer. So there is a strong economic incentive to export dope to Bali.
2. How corrupt can the judge be if he has never found an accused drug trafficker innocent? That tells me he’s never taken a payment.
3. A 100% conviction record just says he’s a tough judge. In Victoria, 93% of cases in the Magistrates Court and 97% of cases in the higher courts wind up with a “guilty” finding. Knowing some of the softcock judges we have (I’m talking about you, Justices Vincent and Bongiorno), I’d say we’ve got a number of “100%” judges right here at home.
4. Ron Bakir (that’s his latest name - check his history) is a showboat. The only money he’s spent has been on his own tickets to Bali. The $100K he pledged towards a $1 million reward for information proving the dope was planted was conditional on another $900K being raised. He subsequently forgot all about doing anything to raise the other $900K, and just yesterday, told an ABC radio reporter there were “more important things to worry about”.
5. 27 year old Lebanese mobile phone entrepreneur and boxing promoter . . . smells like a money man for a dope running operation to me.
6. If I was going to run 4 kg of dope from Brisbane to Sydney, I’d put in in the car and drive for 12 hours. Fuck, I’d take 40 kg to make the trip worthwhile. And I wouldn’t have to pay baggage handlers in both Brisbane and Sydney.
7. Who cares how severe the sentence is? That’s the law in Indonesia.
8. We gave generously to the tsunami victims because it was the right thing to do. The crew of Shark 02 died helping earthquake victims because they were doing their job. Neither of these have anything to do with buying credit to bail out home-grown dope smugglers. To suggest otherwise demeans the memory of the crew of Shark 02.
Michael Parkes- far from being a troll, I am here regularly- I’ve never heard of you. I was in Australian Customs for 16 years, taking a redundancy package in 1994 and becoming a licenced Customs Broker. What’s your qualification? There’s video evidence of the dope being removed from Corby’s bag- what possible motive has the Indonesian Customs officer to verbal her? Much as you may wish the facts to be different, they aren’t. Get over it. The Commonwealth will probably do a deal and repatriate her when the media circus finds a new cause, and she’ll be out of BWP in 18 months.
I trust you’ll be actively campaigning for the release of the two Vietnamese-Australians currently under sentence of death in Singapore and Vietnam, or do you only get your causes from Ray Martin?Michael I know this is silly but corruption means the act of corrupting or being corrupt, (so from the circular to), moral perversion, depravity, dishonesty,esp bribery, putrefacion or decay. You have no grounds for accusing these people of any of that. It is a serious claim and one has to ask why you would hold these individuals guilty with no evidence to support you proposition while all prima facie evidence against Schapelle is dismissed.
Why was it amateurish and incompetent, they detectted the drugs and then observed the boogy bag until it was picked up by Schapelle and followed her. To have grabbed the bag and then tried to prove that it was hers I would think would be incompetent. What are you saying, that in Australia the process wouldn’t be to wait and grab the individual with the bag in their possession.
This story doesn’t just require a conspiracy by the Indonesian personnel, it requires there to be some real (and incompetent) rats in Australia. One can only hope that Schapelle wasn’t protecting anyone and is now paying a terrible price.‘She made admissions at the baggage counter’
- hopefully not to the Customs Officer who doesnt speak English.I have never worked in the law enforcement field, but I can state that someone I know quite well was nearly the victim in an attempted drug setup in Indonesia. Fortunately for him, he happened to check his bag and got rid of the planted evidence before the door crashed in.
Lets see - Corby’s bag was handled by dozens of people, including the media, before fingerprints were taken, she was not provided with an interpreter, there is no record of interview, no tests were carried out to find where the marijuana was grown, and there are several discrepancies between Corby’s version of events and the customs official’s version (he said, she said - yet he doesnt speak English—)
Yep, sounds like a fair trial to me!
20 years for (possibly) possessing some pot.
2 1/2 years for helping to murder hundreds of innocent people, whose only ‘crime’ was belonging to the wrong religion.
Now there’s a society with its priorities right!
Lets see how they handle an Aussie boycott.
#32 Wombatas: “No not a convicted felon. An accused (yet to be tried) prisoner. Oh, but I forgot! ALL accused are guilty in the Murph universe!”
Wrong. He was on remand. First offenders (even multiple offenders, often) do not get remanded. Violent, persistent criminals who are a danger to society and witnesses, and likely to reoffend, get remanded. Ergo, he is a convicted felon, and a particularly nasty one.
#34 Underscore: “My idea of a great holiday destination is certainly not a place that puts a very low value on human life.”
This rules out most of the world. Don’t try taking Nurofen Plus, or any headache tables containing codeine, to Greece. If caught you’ll be charged with a jailable drug offence unless you have a doctor’s prescription. Never mind it’s OTC here. At least they don’t do that in Indonesia.
#45 kae: “I understand that in the adversarial court system you must create doubt, but it hasn’t worked in the Indonesian court system.”
Hardly surprising. Indonesian courts are not adversarial. You’d get the same treatment in France.
Posted by walterplinge on 2005 05 27 at 04:36 AM • permalinkO/T but reading this made me think about some of the ‘excuses’ being made here Have a look at this opinion, it says alot about perceptions.
Wood’s life in US hands: Trad
May 27, 2005THE work of Australia’s leading Muslim cleric to free Australian hostage Douglas Wood is on hold after fighting escalated in Iraq, his spokesman said today.
Sheik Taj al-Din al-Hilali’s latest calls for Mr Wood’s release had been frustrated by continued skirmishes in the city of Haditha near the Euphrates River, the Keysar Trad said.Mr Trad said he did not know how long fighting would continue.
“That’s up to the Americans,” he said.
“They’re the ones (carrying out) the military campaign.
“So really Douglas Wood’s fate is in the hands of the Americans at the moment.”Wake up everybody - she’s guilty as sin (amazing how this argument is rejected without due consideration).
Amazing also how everybody leaps to the conclusion of her innocence without supporting evidence.
And you call the Indonesians corrupt!
She is very lucky she only got 20 years, if she appeals she may get a real big shock.
Tempo: I really couldn’t care less if the prosecutor’s name was Cyril Fortescue-Smythe-Sidebottom III. I’m talking about the bullshit piety of an overwhelmingly Muslim country and its faux-concern about the dastardly evil of hooch. I find that hard to gel with footage of smirking guards and officials when the Bali bomber fronted for court every day.
And PW, the only regrettable comments I see on this thread are references to wasted “poontang” and the like from macho anti-bogan fanatics who obviously had their fucking dogs run over at some stage by tattooed Tiffanies in Nissan Skylines.
The whole case would have been thrown out in an Australian jurisdiction. Amity and mutual respect between nations must be built - substantively, if not totally - on morally reconcilable and mutually understandable systems of ethics and modes of justice.
Indonesia is a third world country whose judges are paid peanut wages and who know - wink wink - what they have to do to keep their shitty flats and their pissant social status. That explains the pre-sentence boasting from the senior judge in this case. Boasting which would certainly have been grounds for a mistrial in a civilised nation.
Dee- that’s the law there. If you don’t agree, don’t go there. As I’ve previously stated on this thread, with what I know of the evidence she would have been convicted here, even with the defence provided by Sec 233B(1a) of the Australian Customs Act- she would need to be able to finger who did own the bag, and its contents. The Customs bloke in Bali was not fluent, but could speak and understand English- first questions are are these your bags? did you pack them? Are you aware of the contents? A positive answer is an acceptance of responsibility in law for the contents. Provided she was cautioned after the contraband was found, she’s pretty well knackered.
I aint never going to Indonesia again. Their values are WAY messed up. Bali bombing mastermind gets three? years and a pot smuggler gets twenty? PTOOEY!!
Posted by Lucky Nutsacks on 2005 05 27 at 04:59 AM • permalinkTalkback caller to ABC drive presenter today.
“what I can’t understand is why Australians care about her but not David Hicks or Mamdu Habib? Well she’s a white woman.”
presenter:“Well I don’t know,I just don’t know.”
Did you catch the smiling photo of O’brien in the promo for the 7.30 report roundup on Schapelle Corby.First time I’ve seen him smile.Does presumption of innocence remain even if one has been convicted.
No. Why do you ask?
There is not a presumption of guilt in inquisitorial but I think there is a different level of proof.
And a quite reasonable person might have a very serious problem with that. Likewise with a judge who has never found a defendent innocent.
#77 walterplinge
Wrong. He was on remand. First offenders (even multiple offenders, often) do not get remanded. Violent, persistent criminals who are a danger to society and witnesses, and likely to reoffend, get remanded. Ergo, he is a convicted felon, and a particularly nasty one.Sorry, Walter. I don’t know what they do in other states, but in South Australia first-timers do get put in remand centres.
One reason is that the police persuade the magistrate that the suspect will not turn up for trial. And it does not have to be for a violent crime.
Posted by pog-ma-thon on 2005 05 27 at 05:47 AM • permalinkDrugs laws are incredibly harsh all over Asia.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 27 at 05:59 AM • permalinkHabib Said:
“There’s video evidence of the dope being removed from Corby’s bag- what possible motive has the Indonesian Customs officer to verbal her? Much as you may wish the facts to be different, they aren’t. Get over it.”
Wow you’re a bright one. Like I stated on a comment above to Ros. The Indonesian customs process behind Corby being caught with the bag was amateurish and incompetent. Then followed the events of the Indonesians denying AFP specialists access to do testing. It’s a blatant cover up of Indonesian incompetence. Like Dee said “Corby’s bag was handled by dozens of people, including the media, before fingerprints were taken, she was not provided with an interpreter, there is no record of interview, no tests were carried out to find where the marijuana was grown, and there are several discrepancies between Corby’s version of events and the customs official’s version.”
The issue at hand is the handling of the case by the Indonesians. Their handling of it from the beginning is akin to the Keystone cops. I’m glad you left-wing moonbats support amateurism. The lack of unknowns, lack of facts and lack of investigative process by the Indonesians far outweights your petty zapruder-esque video evidence you quote. Much as you may wish the facts to be different Habib, they aren’t. Get over it.
“I trust you’ll be actively campaigning for the release of the two Vietnamese-Australians currently under sentence of death in Singapore and Vietnam, or do you only get your causes from Ray Martin?”
Why would you bring that up you left-wing moonbat. The topic on this thread is the Corby case. Nice to bring something up that has nothing to do with the topic at hand you offtopic trolling leftist nut. Get back to Byron Bay and smoke some more of that spliff you are on.
Ros said:
“Michael I know this is silly but corruption means the act of corrupting or being corrupt, (so from the circular to), moral perversion, depravity, dishonesty,esp bribery, putrefacion or decay. “
Agreed.
“You have no grounds for accusing these people of any of that.”
No apart from the lack of facts and investigative process by the Indonesians.
“Why was it amateurish and incompetent,”
See response I gave to Habib.
“they detectted the drugs and then observed the boogy bag until it was picked up by Schapelle and followed her. To have grabbed the bag and then tried to prove that it was hers I would think would be incompetent. What are you saying, that in Australia the process wouldn’t be to wait and grab the individual with the bag in their possession.”
Christ, it’s like ramming my head up against the wall with you left-wing pansies. Please see comments above.
“This story doesn’t just require a conspiracy by the Indonesian personnel, it requires there to be some real (and incompetent) rats in Australia. One can only hope that Schapelle wasn’t protecting anyone and is now paying a terrible price.”
Well no shit sherlock. I’m glad you leftist Matlocks have come out of the woodwork and solved this case with a complete lack of evidence and due process. Congratulations you guys should solve crimes for a living in Byron Bay.
Posted by MichaelParkes on 2005 05 27 at 06:01 AM • permalinkHaven’t read the whole thread due lack of time but here goes:
Murph & Habib. You both demonstrate exactly why we have a judicial system. God help the innocent if you were involved with law enforcement, as I understand one of you was.
Some important points that need to be made now this thing is almost over.
1. Indonesia is a third world cess pool of corruption.
2. The Indonesia system of justice is not. It is a joke based on the most medieval of principles.
3. Why the f**k should we send a single cent of aid to these jerks again, in particular Bali. F**k ‘em and the horse they rode in on from now on.
4. The only evidence that would have any bearing in a similar trial in Australia would be that of the customs officer and I simply do not believe him. If an Australian official were to stuff up a case to this extent I don’t think it would even get to court let alone result in a conviction. The custom official would be sacked, or promoted (hey this is Australian Law Enforcement we’re talking about.)
Posted by Dean McAskil on 2005 05 27 at 06:06 AM • permalinkHabib’s a lefty moonbat? Sometimes I think the biggest thing against Corby is the people that support her.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 27 at 06:13 AM • permalinkAging Gamer said:
Habib’s a lefty moonbat?
That’s right. Us Right-wingers pride ourselves on the preservation of individual rights, and constraints on government power. Two things this leftist idiot is obviously against. If you got a problem with it get back to the DailyKos!
Posted by MichaelParkes on 2005 05 27 at 06:16 AM • permalinkPlease explain how the Indon Customs official stuffed up the case? Not having seen the brief, I can’t comment on the chain of evidence, and unless you’ve had extroadinary access, neither can you. A sworn staement from a law enforcement officer is admissible evidence, unless the defence produces contradictory evidence or proof of corruption, unreliability or malfeasance. Have either Dean or Michael actually been anywhere near a court, besides as a defendant or to contest a section order?
I must admit to being rather chuffed at being accused of trolldom and leftie moonbattery- I has turfed off Mediadiary on the basis of being a right-wing agent provocatuer; methinks Mr Parkes is the troll, his email adress being a bit of a give-away. Could it be a pseudonym of our old mucka Bryla?That’s right. Us Right-wingers pride ourselves on the preservation of individual rights, and constraints on government power. Two things this leftist idiot is obviously against. If you got a problem with it get back to the DailyKos!
That’s libertarianism
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 27 at 06:32 AM • permalinkI staunchy believe in individual rights, as long as they don’t interfere with others rights. I equally believe in individual responsibility. I loathe intrusive government, but respect systems of justice. I disagree with narcotic prohibition, but my beleifs don’t have any influence on state law here, let alone in foreign jurisdictions. That’s why we conservatives don’t carry naughty plants and chemicals or interfere with underage natives or indulge in any of the unsavoury behaviours that many Australians relish in jurisdictions that will bang us up for lengthy periods, or croak us. We’re not stupid. Over to you in the peanut gallery.
Habib, I don’t think that Mr Parkes is Bryla. Bryla is too busy preparing for his little stunt tomorrow of trying to board the USS Blue Ridge, currently docked in Cairns. He informs his Webdiary readers that he has been told by US Navy intelligence, “if we make it to the gangplank they’ll try to wash us off with fire-hoses. If we make the deck, then it’s deadly force.”
I am sure we will all wish the silly bugger the best for his stunt and hope that he makes it on to the deck of the Blue Ridge. His martyrdom would be, I am confident, welcomed by us all.
Tried to post - but it dissapeared - even though registered.
I don’t know (like everyone else here) whether Corby is innocent or not, but would like to know, perhaps Habib might have some info, if there really is a decent market for Marijuana trafficked from Australia to Bali, because it is that part of the case that I have the most difficulty with - on the face of it appears so unreasonable to believe. As for the argument that flying the drugs is insane when you could drive it I can only say that I cross the Qld NSW border twice a month and for the past 3 years vehicle searches have been a common site.
Tim Lindsey has a peice in the Silly that is really insane - seems he just can’t for the life of him understand why we should be worried about the death penalty for Corby when we might have cheered when the Bali bombers received that sentence.
He seems to think it has something to do with the fact that anyone who beleives Corby is innocent is emotional, ignorant, hysterical and a member of a rascist white tribe.Just maybe getting shot for murdering nearly 200 people and expressing nothing but glee afterwards might perhaps be slightly more proportional than possible possession of a narcotic that a large number of people beleive should be decriminalised ?
Tim wrote the colunm to cool tempratures and ad some of his olympian wisdom to the debate.
#86
Does presumption of innocence remain even if one has been convicted. Seems like there is no need for the word guilty in the English language.
Ros - Lindy Chamberlain was found guilty - many of us still do not believe that she was. Wrongful convictions are not unheard of even in a system like ours, which has quite a bit of overbalnce towards the presumption of innocence.#80
Indonesia is a third world country whose judges are paid peanut wages and who know - wink wink - what they have to do to keep their shitty flats and their pissant social status. That explains the pre-sentence boasting from the senior judge in this case. Boasting which would certainly have been grounds for a mistrial in a civilised nation.
C.L. - agree - ties in with Update V11 above. The record is appalling. I do not subscribe to the “users & losers” theory of some of our regulars (who are definitely not trolls) any more than I subscribe to the theory that seventh day adventists sacrifice children at uluru.Habib, have you not seen any of the television footage of the matter. Contrast that with the gloved hands and careful handling of the heroin in the “Bali 9” case (whom I think are probably guilty and if proven, should pay the price.) I too am coming to the conclusion that, for whatever reason, you are trolling here. I have read your posts before and am surprised at the disingenuity you are dispaying in this matter.
It is not hard to believe a small conspiracy of incompetent customs officials who stuffed up a search in what they thought was a minor dope bust. Bang, it’s an international incident and they must perpetuate the lies to keep their jobs in what is now a high profile case. This in a country with little protection for the unemployed.
And please spare us the “I was in law enforcement, were you?” argument. Beside being patronising it is wrong that one must be an expert in a field to comment on a subject. On the contrary I think former and existing law enforcement officers might be the least qualified and are certainly the least partial people to discuss issues of justice or law.
Posted by Dean McAskil on 2005 05 27 at 07:21 AM • permalinkMy personal view with the Chamberlain matter was it was an acquittal on appeal by media, much as was attempted on the Corby matter- personal view, and I don’t claim to be a forensic scientist (NT police made a pigs breakfast of the forensics in the original trial, possibly the appeal grounds but I haven’t researched it deeply). My guess is that the big operators in moving grass interstate would use booked cargo on overnight carriers, especially refrigerated carriers- the state cops don’t have an effective DDU (Detector Dog Unit), and what they do have would rarely be assigned to border ops. It’s mostly smaller operators using cars/utes, mainly bike gangs, and I’d say the cops mainly operate on tip-offs, usually from rival crews. Large-scale movement through airport baggage is bollocks. As to the market in Bali, several posters (hearsay of course) have alluded to a lot of activity by the drug squad in Bali, particularly targetting farangs; many dealers keep active by supplying the local old bill with foreign targets, so the idea that ex-pats are reluctant to buy from locals seems logical. I don’t know what quality the gear was, but from the photos and video I’ve seen it appears to be mostly head, not the local stringy ditch weed- hydroponic is not well known in SE Asia, mostly due to the dearth of equipment, easily concealable premises and reliable three-phase power, so it may be a worthwhile proposition to import, illogical as it may seem. There is a very large ex-pat population in Denpasar and Kuta, so there is a market- many of them are ageing hippies, surf types and assorted bongheads ( a bit like a low-rent equatorial Byron). I went through most of this during an interview with JJJ, which they chose to not run- perhaps it didn’t suit their agenda.
As to our old mate Bryla, wouldn’t it be logical for the USN to reverse their contingency plan? Surely deadly force first, fire hoses second is logical- saves cleaning up, and the harbour crocodiles would be happy as buggery. Thus spake the left-wing moonbat.
BTW- did anyone catch Rosalie Rose on ACA? The woman is crazier than Ron Bakir- apparently George W. Bush is going to pressure Howard to send in the SAS or something.Guys, you can disagree with each other about this matter without calling each other names, casting aspertions on each others’ characters, etc. And disagreement is not “trolling.” It seems to me that Habib has been quite reasonable throughout despite the things that are being said about him here.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 05 27 at 07:26 AM • permalink#26 Tempo:
Your hypothetical case about a person ariving in Australia with 4KG of narcotics (Tempo ... cannabis is defined as a narcotic by law but it isn’t a narcotic by scientific definition, I know) in their possession and detected by law enforcement is correct. Section 233B of the Customs Act 1901 is an absolute offence. The person would be charged and tried. And in my experience, most likely convicted. You have quoted the High Court in R v Nicholas [1998] HCA 9 case, one I am not familiar with. I’m not too sure if cases or law reports are available online, but that is one to check. The trusty Customs Act is here, go to Customs Act.
Australia has laws on trafficing narcotics just like Indonesia. Be careful when you consider what Indonesia has as bad law.I think the Morling Royal Commission had more to do with the Chamberlain case being resolved than did the media.
The discovery of Azaria’s matinee jacket at the base of Ayer’s Rock on February 2, 1986 rekindled the controversy and renewed speculation that a dingo had taken the baby. Five days later the Northern Territory government released Lindy Chamberlain and appointed a Royal Commission headed by Federal Court Judge Justice Trevor Morling. The Royal Commission exonerated both Lindy and Michael Chamberlain.
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=877
If our legal system stuffs up, can you really have faith in theirs?I’ll admit that serving and former law-enforcement officers tend to be less than impartial; it is an attitude brought on by experience, where you tend to assume the worst then go on to prove it.
My input to this has been to impart my experience on these matters, give my professional opinion of the evidence and the case presented by the prosecution and the defence. The prosecution was a little sloppy, but as I (and none of you) were present in the court for the proceedings I can only go by what has been presented in the media. A prosecution in Australia would feature video coverage of the bag from the time it left the aircraft hold, to the unloading area, onto the carousel, pickup by subject, baggage examination and interview following discovery; I don’t know if such was presented to the court. The defendant identified herself as the owner of the bag- this was never contested by the defence, so it is prima face evidence of ownership of the contents. There is a small chance that she was unawre of the contents, but enough to establish beyond reasonable doubt? Mens Rea is only a concept in British legal heritage, not European, on which the Indonesian system is based. As stated before, I think a similar set of circumstances would have resulted in a conviction by an Australian jury. I hate to admit it, but I think what Derryn Hinch has put forward has some legs- she doesn’t look guilty.Each of Habib’s cases are coherent & objective, why all the insults from trolls?
Posted by Steve at the pub on 2005 05 27 at 07:45 AM • permalinkBTW_ in the legal context, narcotic is used in a generic rather than a scientific manner; it is a recognised term for intoxicants, usually restricted or prohibited by law. There’s a definition in the Customs Act here, and most other jurisdictions would have similar. I think you’[ll find several Gulf states refer to Black Label as a narcotic.
genwolf said (#102):
“seems to think it has something to do with the fact that anyone who beleives Corby is innocent is emotional, ignorant, hysterical and a member of a rascist white tribe”.
Well, I am willing to concede that everyone that believes she is innocent is not a rascist white tribe, but I pretty well agree with most of the rest of what Mr Lindsay said.
I am with Habib, Murph and Ros on this one. It does not matter what may or may not have happened under an Australian jurisdiction, she was tried under Indonsesian law. It is their country. Her defense team spent more time working on the OZ media than building a decent case (hearsay of hearsay indeed!).
I personally don’t know if she was guilty or innocent, but given the choice between trusting an Indonesian judge or the Australian media, sorry, but the judge wins.I think also that many normally rational beings (ie C.L.) are so focussed on the enormity of her sentence, that they cannot evaluate dispassionately on the circumstances in which she finds herself.
I presume the relevant part of the Act 1901 you refer is:
(2) It shall not be lawful for any person to convey or have in his
possession without reasonable excuse (proof whereof shall lie upon
him) any smuggled goods or prohibited imports.It would be a relatively simple matter to raise sufficent reasonable doubt in the circumstances of the Corby matter that the dope was not ever in her possesion nor conveyed by her.
I repeat my assertion that given similar circumstances in Australia and similar conduct by the Customs Officials, the matter would not even result in a charge.
I am aware of the case of Japanese lady (can’t remember her name) in prison in Australia, but think her situation more akin to the claimed excuse of the “Bali 9” in that she was an unwitting participant in a smuggling ring. Incidentally I do not think she was served well by the Australian justice system.
Posted by Dean McAskil on 2005 05 27 at 07:49 AM • permalinkChrist, the crabs are out on this one. She is probably guilty, but might not be. (Call it 90% vs 10% or whatever you want).
But there is a dog that is not barking.
Some questions need answering before you can make up your mind. The MSM has covered none of this, of course.
1. How many times has she been to Bali and in what time frame?
2. What money movements have occurred in her accounts before, during and after these trips?
3. Does her sister actually runa surfshop in Bali?
4. If so, why was she taking her own board? Awkward bit of kit to lug about, when sis has a swag of them in the surfshop (if that info is true, it from the MSM remember)
5. Contacts indicate they get their ‘stuff’ in Bali from a number of places, Surfshops run by expats among ‘em. Is sis’s surf shop one of ‘em?
6. The local ‘stuff’ is very variable in quality, and undercover poilice are rife, and she looks like a perfect mule. And she was carrying the damned stuff in her kit!Let’s face it, too. Her excuse was about as good as ‘The dog ate my homework’. If some baggage handler had screwed up like this with 4kg of some crim’s dope, we’d know. His body would have been recovered from Sydney harbour by now.
In any case, she is going to be a very rich bogan indeed. She’ll do a couple of years in the Bali slammer, then get swapped on prisoner exchange. Once the heat dies down a little, the pollies will deal for a Presidential pardon to remove her as a niggling friction point in relations between the two countries.
The she will flog her story to the rags and mags, do a book deal, some wanker will make a tear jerker movie, and she will be a millionaire bogan.
Bottom line, she is probably a mule, and is probably guilty. And she is certainly going to be ‘paid’ a couple of million for maybe 3-4 years of her time.
Shit, who would not take THAT deal.
MarkL
CanberraThanks again for the info Habib.
I will plead to being a conservative also, and quite comfortable with the consistency of my position. So I don’t think I am a RWDB one day, lefty moonbat the next.
Schapelle showed dignity and restraint and respect for the court and the judges acknolwedged it. Just as she sought courtesy from her family I suspect that she would rather her support did not come in the form of abuse and overt racism.
There is a lot of anger because of either a misunderstanding of, or no knowledge of an inquisitorial system. There has been considerable angst in South Australia because of the plea bargaining that has gone on which is not possible under the inquisitorial system. And Because the adversarial system assumes that the evidence is to be presented to layman rather than to jurists, the rules of evidence are considerably more strict, as are the rules on hearsay. When they get off we hate it.
It is English speaking or Commonwealth speaking countries that are the adversarial ones. I don’t know but possibly more countries in the world democratic included are inquisitorial. I read that India is thinking of or has gone over to inquisitorial?
Despite accusations of corruption the legal opinions being heard would seem to support the contention that Schapelle got a fair trial. But that with a more powerful defence she has some hope of a reversal. Amongst the best available are Bashir’s lawyers. Would the rescuing of Schapelle by those lawyers be acceptable.
We will look like hicks if we roundly condemn the justice system of much of the world, or arrogant Anglos.What conduct by customs officials? That’s (1) of section 233, I think you’ll find E is the section relevant to narcotic matters. The defence never raised the question that the bag was not hers- in the summing up, the beak referred to evidence that the bag’s weight did not vary at any of the two check-in points- Brisbane and Sydney; a reasonable person could safely aver that the fact that the weight was the same at Denpassar airport means there had been no addition in transit; we’re not talking an ounce deal here, it was a bag the size of a six year old rug monkey.
If some baggage handler had screwed up like this with 4kg of some crim’s dope, we’d know. His body would have been recovered from Sydney harbour by now.
Or perhaps just the arm coughed up by a shark!
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/lawrpt/lstories/lr990427.htm
(scroll down 70%)Dean McAskill, No that is not the relevant provision of the Act. The relevant provision is:
s.233B Special provisions with respect to narcotic goods
(1) A person commits an offence if:(a) the person:
(i) possesses goods on board a ship or aircraft; or
(ii) brings goods into Australia; or
(iii) imports goods into Australia; or
(iv) possesses goods that have been imported into Australia in contravention of this Act; or
(v) conveys goods that have been imported into Australia in contravention of this Act; or
(vi) possesses goods that are reasonably suspected of having been imported into Australia in contravention of this Act; or
(vii) fails to disclose to an officer on demand any knowledge in his or her possession or power concerning the importation or intended importation, or bringing or intended bringing, into Australia of goods; and
(b) the goods are a prohibited import to which this section applies.#112: I think the Morling Royal Commission had more to do with the Chamberlain case being resolved than did the media.
Or, as Lynley herself put it, “my conviction was squashed”. That woman’s voice was worse that fingernails on a blackboard.
Back to the subject, my wife reports (ex-TV) that Schapelle has become a Christian while in prison.
Posted by walterplinge on 2005 05 27 at 08:17 AM • permalinkRos- her defence was pathetic. apparently she was offered the services of two top grade silks, courtesy of the taxpayer and organised by Foreign Affairs, but she (and her ‘tard family) chose to run with Crazy Ron (word is DIFEA coughed for the bill for the incompetents anyway, Bakir is an undischarged bankrupt- I would assume his reciever would be asking where the 1mill bounty he was offering, his travel expenses and his passport have sprung from). A guilty plea probably would have resulted in a plea-bargain down to ten up front, reduced on appeal and a quiet repatriation when the hubub died down. By defending the matter, it became a media circus. I can’t help wondering if she’s covering for family or friends- the next few days will tell. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a statement in a few days implicating others when the penny drops that she’s in for a lengthy stay in a rather unpleasant place.
Ok jumping over the last forty or so posts but as the only poster who apparently appears in court can I suggest the following:
1. SC would be convicted in Queensland on the evidence presented in the media,
2. Darren Hinch has it right; if she was not good looking with a nice set of norks most people would not give a shit.
I am what tag says, in Qld she would be fucked and a great deal of this drama is about the sentence, in Qld she would probably have got less than 4 years as a head sentence.
As for drug laws I am with Habib as is just about every one else who is prepared to be honest and who is in the system.
Posted by Just Another Bloody Lawyer on 2005 05 27 at 08:41 AM • permalink#50 Balaidor writes:
Steve - who went public the day Ford appeared at Corby’s trial - says he tried to flush the dope, but failed. He sprinkled it around the hotel garden.
Stupid lousy impossible-to-flush
Korandrugs…Posted by Indy Media Watch on 2005 05 27 at 08:49 AM • permalinkEach of Habib’s cases are coherent & objective, why all the insults from trolls?
Had you watched ACA you’d understand, as Habib pointed out the woman on there was insane. Hysteria seems to be a prereq for Corby supporters.
And call me a loon but I still think this entire circus is to sour relations just so the media can prove a point. The media hasn’t given a damn about drug smugglers (innocent or not) before, why start now? Hell most of them get death, they still didn’t care.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 27 at 09:02 AM • permalinkHabib, you left-wing moonbat you!
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 05 27 at 09:10 AM • permalinkFollowing on Habib and Aging Gamer re the media circus, Schapelle if she has got any sense has to be very worried by all of this.
I have come to the view that Indonesia’s current President is pretty impressive, he dealt adroitly with his loonies during the aftermath of the tsunami, he has managed to shift some bad characters etc. He is faced with a very fragile democracy and the strong remnants of less than attractive army personnel. But he has brought his country much closer to Australia. One of the rewards of that is the negotiations on prisoner exchange, which are not down to Ms Corby. But as I understand it while we have the necessary legislation Indonesia would have to pass the enabling? legislation through their Parliament.
This media furor gives those who don’t like us or don’t support the President ammunition to fight such an agreement with Australia. Look what they think of us and our legal system they could say. And how can we trust them
The big loser, Schapelle, amongst the 13 currently in custody in Indonesia.It is hard to see how the media gives a hoot for Schapelle, and the hillbilly attitude of many Australians doesn’t help.
How outraged would we be (in fact were about the Indonesian objections to the raids after Bali) if Indonesian tourists turned up at a court case and shouted abuse at the judge, or sat around in bars saying what useless sods we were.I’m batting around in my Margo Kingston restraints as I type this, Bingley, you unfeeling swine. once you submit, have the Hildebeest in Ho Height tatoo applied and give up all reason and cognitive thought, life is just peachy. Why are we concerned about a rich white fscist drug smuggler, when there are refugee pandas suffering?
Bingley, you unfeeling swine
No! I’m actually Emo Man, hyper-sensitive pussy! I feel your pain as the ennui closes in…
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 05 27 at 09:35 AM • permalinkOh and just as a point of interest, I believe that in the Indonesian legal system even if an accused pleads guilty that a ‘trial’ must still be held which places the 500 trial no acquital record of some or all of the judges in a better light.
Still, now people might better appreciate our system, which always gets bagged until it’s you or your child/spouse/sibling on trial.
Posted by Just Another Bloody Lawyer on 2005 05 27 at 09:38 AM • permalinkWell, after reading all this I can’t get Warren Zevon out of my head:
I was gambling in Havana
I took a little risk
Send lawyers, guns and money
Dad, get me out of this
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 05 27 at 09:43 AM • permalinkFirstly, well done Habib, leftist troll, Marilyn Shepherd will be proud.
secondly, this article by Tim Lindsey has a salient point:
There is a lesson to be learnt from this: what happens in Indonesia directly affects Australians. Whether it is war, terrorism, trials or tsunamis, Australians will always be part of what happens to our near north.
It is time we focused more on building links, on repairing the catastrophic decline in Indonesian studies and language skills in Australia and engaging, rather than demonising and shunning, a neighbour, just because it has an Australian on trial.
Bagging the Indonesians, calling them corrupt, etc, will change nothing, we have to learn to deal with them. Secondly, if we boycott Bali, who do we really hurt? The hard-working Hindu locals who depend on tourism, or the ‘judges’?
Personally, I think she is the ‘fall girl’ for her family, this may well come out later.
I was going to use that line, Habib, but this being a family-friendly site and all I would have said “the fecal matter has impacted the impeller…”
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 05 27 at 10:00 AM • permalinkKK I don’t think that the presumption of guilt is correct re inquistorial. So the International Court of Justice is the same.
Mr Bingley what can one say, did chuckle a bit though.
You eastcoasters would of course seen it before us here, but I see that Kruddy has bought in saying that June is too late as a speed up date for continuing negotiations re prisoner exchange, and that Alexander has got it wrong again I assume.
That guy is without shame. And we should believe he CARES.
A hazy recollection of what was heard this afternoon on 720 ABC Perth radio:
Caller:
I think the reason people care about Schapelle and not about Hicks and Habib is because she didn’t turn against her own country by training with terrorists.
Presenter:
ah, well, ah, I think you’ll find that many, many people do care about Hicks and Habib.
Caller:
But they turned against their own countries.
Presenter cuts call, moves to next.
Gold.Oh FFS Nic, what bullshit. We’re back are we to the Keatingesque stuff about how we’ve got to understand them etc. What next, Howard calling Wham Bam Yoko Ono “father”, as PJK called Suharto?
Their country’s a corrupt moral bordello and there’s not a thing we can usefully learn from them. They didn’t mind receiving tsunami aid from their amoral southern neighbour a few months back and we moved mountains to save thousands of Indonesian lives.
They’ve returned the favour by banging up a woman over a bag of grass and their deranged state apparatus now wants to appeal to ensure she gets even more time. And the allegedly patriotic and hitherto unknown Derryn Hinch right on this thread are greeting all this with the joy of Palestinian shopkeepers on hearing of the Twin Towers coming down.
Bloody hell, Mister Sheckel Citizen, I do believe you’ve lost the plot. Is it the green eyes, the feinting spells or the crying bursts that have done the job? You were always a reasoned and reasonable person- what is the reason for the irrational reaction against the Indonesian judiciary? Had it been under Sukarno, I’d be outraged; the buggers are trying hard to join western civilisation. This is of course based on this last item being a genuine CL comment and not another troll.
CL, I’m the last one to be saying we should ‘kow-tow’ to the Indonesians, though gee, give the dog a bone ,eh. Do you actually think that the more Aussies yell at the Indonesians, telling them they are stupid and corrupt, is going to achieve anything other than antipathy?
We know the stance of many asian nations on drugs, are we banning Singapore next? I was there last week, they hanged a local who dealt an amount of grass that was far less than the amount that Corby got caught with. This is the rub, you mightn’t like what they do, though they do it to their own people as well. Pleading that ‘we’ do it differently cuts no ice when your own don’t recieve any ‘special’ treatment.
Paul, if you weren’t so wetting-your-pants excited by the ruination of Corby’s life because you have a famous loathing for her social class, I’d take your observations more seriously.
None of your remarks rebut the central argument that this case would have been thrown out in Australia. And yes, at a time when Australia is pressured to sign amity treaties and otherwise demonstrate our cultural simpatico with the region, that does matter.
Please don’t try on the ‘irrational’ machismo routine. I could just as readily query why you want everyone to poner and laugh about her physical appearance after the ravages of a 20 year stretch. That was reasonable was it?
CL- I ignored her physical atributes, and considered the evidence; I thought I would have had to argue the point with others. Have you read the previous posts, where I have fairly excruciatingly provided legal and evidential reasons for a conviction, including same under Australian jurisdiction? I’m no fan of excessive penalties, but the circumstanses are the the offence happened in their jurisdiction, she was found guilty, QED.
C.L. the reason why I admire you is because, even when I stoutly disagree with you, you are so damned eloquent it almost wins me over.
You’re a compassionate man. I wish I could be more so. The absence of it is always troubling. But this aside, I just can’t bring myself to be outraged over this finding.
As certain as I am that the prosecution’s case (as it stands) can’t possibly a true reflection of the events, something still smells about Corby’s doe-eyed defence.
I don’t know enough to condemn her, though, either.
Posted by Mike Jericho on 2005 05 27 at 11:08 AM • permalinkNone of your remarks rebut the central argument that this case would have been thrown out in Australia.
Why. Is. This. Relevant? You might as well say the case would have been thrown out on Mars.
When I go to another country I am willingly subjecting myself to their legal system, if I don’t like I don’t go there.
And to my knowledge, their legal syste (along with that France and others) works like our civil law, you aren’t automatically guilty, you simply must provide a stronger case that you’re innocent, the burden of proof is on everyone.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 27 at 11:15 AM • permalinkIt doesn’t sound like C.L. Other than he seemed to feel a lot of sympathy for her.
It is surprising that he would be so uninformed about the case against Schapelle Corby, e.g. ” this case would have been thrown out in Australia.” And he is not using his spell checker. Or the Keating cared about them, he just happened to have a mate who was Dictator of Indonesia at the time.
Who is Paul with his famous loathing of beauticians?
Does he usually go after you nic.
He has on the other hand got stuck into me previously but I appear to be safe tonight.
Not C.L.
And if it is C.L. where is he at The Currency Lad?It matters AG because Australia is constantly being unctiously advised - for the betterment of our relationships with near neighbours - to conform itself in various cultural, political and economic ways to regional norms. I rate standards of justice, and their conformity with civilisationally recognisable benchmarks, as important than the parities being demanded of us in other spheres. Throwing away the key, more or less, on an essentially good young woman over a sack of relatively harmless weed is not just and is not civilised. And I’d say the same thing if the citizen concerned looked like Big Kev and had a wooden leg.
Habib’s a leftie ? Sheesh…
Once a motive for smuggling pot into Bali is established then the Corby jigsaw falls into place.
There definitely is a market for hydophonic pot in Bali amongst Western tourists brought up on the stuff. The local bush pot is only a quarter the strength of hydrophonic pot.
Hence the Frenchman currently doing time in Bali for smuggling 4kgs of hashish into Bali. High grade weed destined for the Euro smokers in Bali.
To possess $30,000 of pot does not indicate that it was obtained for that amount. It could easily have been a credit deal. Or it was grown in someone’s bedroom over 3-4 months for a fraction of the price.
As the prosecution pointed out, it is then worth 10 times the price of Balinese pot. Why ? Westerners will pay the same price as they pay at home for the same quality product.
Even if fingerprinting cleared Corby it does not necessarily indicate she was unaware of the pot. Just that she didn’t pack it.
Finally, if a baggage handler planted the pillow-sized bag of pot, why would he walk around with it in clear plastic, for all to see ? Why not conceal it in a pillow case ? Probably because it never happened that way.
Ros:
I’m quite sober and, as usual, occasionally careless with spelling in rapidly fired-off comments. Aren’t we all?! I apologise if I’ve offended anyone - I mean no personal disrespect to Nic or Paul.
Yes, I’m angry about the case and I’m angry - temporarily at least - with Indonesia. And I don’t apologise for being angry at the trivialisation of this woman’s plight - as evidenced in some comments. But it’s a thread discussion and people frame their arguments according to mood and what’s been said in previous contributions and the whole is not always a reflection of someone’s true oevre.
If others are proved right, I may end up being angry with Corby herself.
As for blogging, I haven’t been free to do any this week. I don’t recall “going after” you Ros. I thought it was more a case of you coming after me on several of my TCL posts - as you’re always welcome to do.
C.L., if you must know I am on the verge of shutting your membership off for a cool-down period. For one thing, insulting and ranting at the commenters here is neither going to help this young woman’s case, nor further the cause of bringing the legal systems of foreign countries into line with the customs of your own.
Whether you like it or not, this woman has received about as mild a sentence for drug-possession in an Asian country as she is likely to get (barring successful appeals by her defence team). I do believe that the default position of most countries in Southeast Asia as regards drug offenses is somewhere in the life-imprisonment/death-penalty range. I believe their reasoning is: their much weaker economies and social structures don’t have the ability to absorb as much antisocial behavior as do the societies of wealthier countries. This is not the ideal situation, but simply the bad facts. We here in the States can put up with a certain cavalier attitude towards low-addiction drugs like marijuana and the people who use it because our economy and society is strong enough to absorb the effects of a small population of potheads. Also, there really isn’t a whole lot of violent crime associated with marijuana trafficking within the country; I believe that the real crime has to do with hard drugs like heroin and cocaine. (Also, there isn’t as much profit to gain from something one can grow in one’s own apartment.) From what little I know of Australia the situation seems to be the same. Places like Indonesia don’t have this luxury. Perhaps you don’t think these are sufficient reasons for a country to have harsh anti-drug laws, but that really isn’t your decision to make, as you don’t have to live with it.
Bitching and moaning about the mean Indonesians doesn’t change the fact that some white foreigners from rich countries are willing to break the laws of “lesser” nations in order to make a profit. I feel absolutely no pity for anyone who does such a thing and gets caught. And just on a side note, considering the many slams you’ve made against their “hypocritical” and “puritanical” supposedly Islam-influenced anti-drug laws, I wonder how pissed off you’d be at the Indonesian courts if their society was predominantly Christian instead of Muslim and (in Bali anyway) Hindu.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 05 27 at 01:15 PM • permalinkIt matters AG because Australia is constantly being unctiously advised - for the betterment of our relationships with near neighbours - to conform itself in various cultural, political and economic ways to regional norms. I rate standards of justice, and their conformity with civilisationally recognisable benchmarks, as important than the parities being demanded of us in other spheres.
And we tell them to fuck off everytime, again, relevance? It’s got nothing to do with Corby, it’s just random sniping at the left which although terribly fun, carries no weight in this arguement. Are you clining onto it like a life raft?
Throwing away the key, more or less, on an essentially good young woman over a sack of relatively harmless weed is not just and is not civilised.
Two things.
This isn’t the 60s/70s, modern weed is vastly more potent and usually laced with other drugs.
Secondly the sentence is light, were it not for the media circus she’d of probably been sentenced to life or death.
And hell that last part is almost offensive, they’re harsh on drugs because they don’t want a pile of junkies fucking up the future of their country. I would think a bunch of idiots and a bag of drugs (which they probably stole stuff to get the money to pay for) is the reverse of being civilised.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 27 at 01:20 PM • permalinkBased on what I’ve read here, and this seemed to be the best summation i could find, as this story is not getting a lot of play here in the us, it seems that her defense is rather weak. If I were one of the judges I would have a hard time acquiting based on this.
Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 05 27 at 01:44 PM • permalink“Bottom line, she is probably a mule, and is probably guilty. And she is certainly going to be ‘paid’ a couple of million for maybe 3-4 years of her time.
Shit, who would not take THAT deal.”
Well, I suppose it depends on how many times the guards rape her.
There isn’t enough money in the world for me to spend a month in a third-world prison.
“Back to the subject, my wife reports (ex-TV) that Schapelle has become a Christian while in prison.”
I wonder how many times a day Christ says to himself, “Oh, Me-dammit! Not another loser! Once, just freakin’ once, could I get a conversion from a nice agnostic who’s got her shit together? I swear to Me, it’s nothing but alcoholics and convicts around here.”
Well, I suppose it depends on how many times the guards rape her.
You know, Dave S., when you make such “savage darkie” statements maybe you should back them up with facts.
In any case, it’s not that difficult to stay out of third-world prisons. You can either not go to third world countries, or if you do, don’t be a junkie or a feckless idiot or a naive person who doesn’t lock their luggage. If you are confused about what is illegal in other countries I think you can take for granted that at the very least the things that are no-nos in the Anglosphere are illegal in the rest of the world, no matter what your hip friends claim.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 05 27 at 02:55 PM • permalink[T]hat’s the law there. If you don’t agree, don’t go there.
... and break the law. Habib has it exactly right.
It seems likely that Schapelle indeed broke Indonesian drug laws as alleged. Big mistake.
Like Indonesia, Mexico has draconian laws regarding drugs, motor vehicles, and a lot of other things. Their jails are vastly worse than California’s (which is hard to imagine), corruption is widespread, and there is no presumption of innocence whatever. Visitors to Mexico are well advised to mind their P’s and Q’s, to hire taxis rather than drive, and to be careful in general.
Don’t like it? Then don’t go there, simple as that. It may not be fair, but these are developing countries with very different legal standards. Westerners sometimes think that laws in foreign countries don’t apply to them.
I’m not without sympathy for Schapelle, and I wish her well, but she’s an adult and she stepped in a big pile of it.
CL said
Their (Indonesia) country’s a corrupt moral bordello and there’s not a thing we can usefully learn from them.
Well thats a sweeping statement if I ever heard one. Ignorant too.
Lets just dispense with the pretense of presumption of innocence entirely. We know best. SC should be freed because she is not a rock ape.
So it is C.L. While the command of language was there, you weren’t your usual eloquent self however. You cleared it up though. Should have thought, of course, that Andrea would be on top of who was who.
I do feel for Schapelle, but I also feel for Indonesia. That Andrea’s assessment that the greater wealth of nations such as ours gives us more capability to cope is a reality. So is the fact that this fragile democracy’s people have suffered much over history, and the violence that has been inflicted on them and the poverty they still struggle with maybe makes them just a little less sympathetic to the mistakes of a young Australian woman. If my memory serves me correctly about one quarter of a million Indonesian’s were taken as indentured labour inWW2 by the Japanese and possibly up to a third died. Possibly aided and abetted by the previous dictator of Indonesia. That Keating was mates with the next dictator, who deserves his place in history as possibly one of the great slaughterers of his own people in the 20th century, in no way represents what is the relationship between the Indonesian people and the Australian people.
I feel much more for our neighbours who died with Australians in Bali, or the Balinese who grieved with us over that dreadful event. But a real sea change for me was the incomprehensible pain and courage of those whom are now to me friends, in the tsunami.
President Sus-ilo Bambang Yudiono’s embrace of John Howard and the honour they showed our men and women who died helping them deserves to be remembered and valued. That our friendship and giving to those decent, hardworking and courageous people should be cast aside over this event is intolerable to me.
I agree Nic. One sense I have of this site or sites like C.L. is that despite the vigour one could always have a beer together after the joust has concluded, or even in the middle of it. Margo in particular, but also some of the other sites one just couldn’t.
And anybody can join in, the language is not exclusive and the contempt is not based on a foundation of intellectual superiority.Occam’s razor: one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.
This is a relatively simple matter. Is she guilty? I am amazed that those who have given the extensive evidence available in the media even the most cursory butchers could think she was guilty.
Consider the circumstantial gymnastics required to construct a scenario where a low-income and still relatively poor, modest living lady from Queensland conspires to import 4kg of valuable weed into a country awash with drugs. Contrast that with the far more likely, and far simpler (refer Mr Occam above) scenario where some baggage handler is looking for a quick way to ship a bag of weed around Australia. At least one other Australian has complained of finding a block of cannabis in their bag on arrival. Even the ever-helpful Federal Police (AFP) has suggested baggage handlers are responsible for assisting with cocaine imports through Sydney.
Why has the number of visits to Bali by this lady become an issue? For those non-Australians Bali is a cheap and accessible destination for holidays from Australia and has been for 25 years. I know perfectly law-abiding people in WA who have visited the country almost every year for the past 15 years. I know of one person who has visited the place more than 20 times.
And this nonsense regarding the Australian Customs Act; once you have checked a bag in at the counter it is no longer in your exclusive possession. Perhaps we should charge the airline. I mean there is a prima facie case that they imported the drug. Isn’t there?
Please forgive my scepticism regarding law-enforcement agencies. I live in WA where we have the least corrupt and most efficient police force in the world, and as a result almost no crime. Well we would have if the police had more resources. No wait we have more police per capita than any other state, but wait there’s more we also have the highest crime rate in the country. No one innocent is ever convicted here. Except for the John Button (death commuted to life), Darryl Beamish (death commuted to life), the Mickelbergs (15-20 years), …
Posted by Dean McAskil on 2005 05 27 at 11:24 PM • permalinkHmmmm.
Face is a very important thing in the East. I should know I’m a South Korean. Could this trial, and both it’s verdict and the publicity, be a means for Indonesia to regain it’s face, from the tsunami, by publicly humiliating Australia?
Seriously how is the importation of pot, into a country where they grow the stuff locally, be worth 20 years? Are natives subject to the same lengthy sentence?
Posted by memomachine on 2005 05 27 at 11:53 PM • permalinkHmmm.
“Like Indonesia, Mexico has draconian laws regarding drugs, motor vehicles, and a lot of other things. Their jails are vastly worse than California’s (which is hard to imagine), corruption is widespread, and there is no presumption of innocence whatever. Visitors to Mexico are well advised to mind their P’s and Q’s, to hire taxis rather than drive, and to be careful in general.”
You forgot about the corrupt cops who will shake you down for used $20 bills or else you get to spend at least one night in the local jail.
Posted by memomachine on 2005 05 27 at 11:55 PM • permalinkEd, I really think that your idea that this is all some sort of intricate “face saving” scheme because of the tsunami is really stretching it. For one thing, a tsunami is a natural disaster, and it didn’t just affect Indonesia; but in any case “face” is more of a reaction to the social relationships not reactions to natural disasters. Besides, natural disasters like tsunamis and earthquakes happen frequently in the part of the world, and I believe the reaction to them traditionally always contains more than a little bit of fatalism. For another thing, all Asian cultures aren’t alike, so though you may be South Korean, you can’t say that Indonesians (or as we have here, Balinese) think like your people do. (Though would South Koreans react to a natural disaster by putting foreigners in prison? Just another reason to stay right here at home, where if there is craziness then at least it is familiar craziness.)
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 05 28 at 02:45 AM • permalinkNone of the above scenarios allow that perhaps Indonesia are cracking down on drugs because they fear a more corruptable drug taking society leading to economic collapse, social upheaval etc etc.
It was mentioned to me that the recent economic growth has led to enormous expansion of the population of the middle class. Drugs were becoming accessible to this new middle class - so the govt decided to get tough and this crackdown has had a noticeable effect.
I doubt if “face” is an issue, Indonesians aren’t too worried about Australians opinions - the Corby familys public conduct was hardly dignified.
Reports are that S Corby wrote to the Indonesian Pres seeking a pardon before the verdict was given. How stupid is that - virtually admitting guilt and seeking clemency - she actively participated in her guilty verdict .
This is the worst legal defence in all history.
Posted by Aging Gamer on 2005 05 28 at 03:35 AM • permalink“something smells about this doe eyed girls defence.”
Didn’t we all say the same about Peter Falconio’s girlfriend?
Turned out she was telling the truth after all.She just looked guilty and shifty for some reason.Probably because as she later admitted she had an affair with a guy and didn’t tell the cops.Most mainstream Australians woke to their breakfast over the papers wishing our own judicial system would be closer to that of Indonesia.
Schapelle? Unfortunate. And she has our sympathy. Of course.
But turn to pages 5, 6, 7.
Ecstasy dealers on bail. Others hanging out at Crown, under threat of ‘banning’ by the State Government. Banning? From a casino?
These thugs - dealers of death to our society - should be locked up, taken out, topped, you name it.
The brave Indonesians would, but so many western commentators - including many here, about which I am surprised - are blind to this worldwide blight.
*
Then: I’m parked in the street outside a chain store whose name shall remain nameless but whose initials are Cash Converters when a spaced out smackhead walks in with a bicycle which is not his size. And walks out with cash.
This is civilisation?
The Indonesians’ zero tolerance is right and most Australians agree.
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UPDATE: David Galbally thinks this is just a manner of speaking, not that the judges regard it as true. They may be saying that the prosecutor proposes it as truth.