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DESTRUCTION OF ZIMBABWE CONTINUES
Australia joins the US and UK in denouncing the alleged re-election of Robert Mugabe:
Zimbabwe’s elections were a fraud, Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said today.
Mr Downer said the elections, which resulted in another overwhelming victory for President Robert Mugabe, emanated from suspect electoral rolls and a poor voter turnout.
“In the end, we don’t regard the election as credible at all,” he said.
“It’s a very sad thing that a country like Zimbabwe has walked away from liberal democracy that it was given.”
Zimbabwe remains on the UN’s Human Rights Commission, presumably as comedy relief.
I wonder what the chances are that Webdiary, Your Democracy, and the Daily Kos will express their displeasure equal to that shown against George Bush.
Or at all, for that matter.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 04 02 at 09:47 PM • permalinkWhen is the invasion?
I’m ready if you are, nwab. See you there…
Posted by Quentin George on 2005 04 03 at 12:14 AM • permalinkBlogstrop, how so?
Mugabe - in power since 1987 - is responsible for political violence, human rights violations, disastrous “land reform”, and economic instability with massive inflation and unemployment problems. Around 100,000 Zimbabweans are considered Internally Displaced Persons, ie refugees without homes in their own country.
By the logic of the invasion and occupation of Iraq, Zimbabwe is at least as qualified for armed liberation by the coalition of the willing.
Don’t you like this idea? Should we only care about the situation in Zimbabwe if it allows us to make political attacks against the “left”, the UN, Mark Latham, or Margo Kingston?
Will invading Zimbabwe and overthrowing the Mugabe government catalyze reform towards consensual government in the rest of Africa? Not likely, so the argument is much less compelling than that for the Iraq Campaign was. The US faces things more urgent for it to do. However, I would encourage South Africa to do something, except that Mbeki has been cheering Mugabe on. Tsk, tsk.
Now is the time for the vaunted soft power wielded by those progressive European Union states and Canada to come through and show its effectiveness. It has been showing its effectiveness with Iran and North Korea, hasn’t it? Don’t hold your breath waiting for soft power to succeed at anything serious.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2005 04 03 at 03:16 AM • permalinkNWAB - You’re not trying to make a point, you’re trying to set up a strawman because you’re not smart enough to figure it out on your own. DUH, INVADING IRAQ = INVADING EVERYONE. Why don’t you just post “YOUR MOM” and “OH, SNAP” on every thread?
I’d like to see Mugabe bullied out of power by the international community without open warfare, myself. But that requires a very different international community from the one we currently have. I think we’re getting closer, though.
Assad in Syria has been squealing “I’m not like Saddam”, and it’s a sound I’d like to hear from more dictators. It will take a lot more arm-twisting and pressure to keep things rolling. I hope it takes less war, but it’s not like peace is any less lethal.
I see you’ve decided to be tiresome today, nwab. Tell you what; it’s late where I am, so I’m going to sleep on it. If you haven’t quit being a prick by the time I get up, your commenting privileges will be revoked.
By the way, I rarely sleep more than seven hours a night. That gives you seven whole hours (or a few minutes more; I may take my time drinking my coffee) to shape up. Don’t say I never gave you a fighting chance.
Posted by Andrea Harris, Administrator on 2005 04 03 at 03:21 AM • permalinkGood point, Michael. I wonder if Howard is ready to “punch above his weight” and take some action.
Sortelli, we have seen change (or at least reaction) in Tripoli, Rangoon, and elsewhere on the basis of US sabre-rattling. For instance, Bush knows that he does not currently have the firepower to invade Iran as well, but there is nonetheless a lot of noise about it. Why none over Zimbabwe.
What my strawman (is this a Wizard of Oz reference?) is pointing to is the fact that - as you and Michael have identified - there was more to the invasion of Iraq than a heartfelt desire for liberation. So let’s cut the crap and stop pretending.
Difficult to invade Zimbabwe, unfortunately. No coasts, and the neighbouring countries wouldn’t allow basing or overflight rights. We got lucky with Kuwait in ‘03 - if they hadn’t allowed us to invade from their territory, Saddam would still be in power.
Pity. I too have yearned to see Zimbabwe forced to be more democratic (hey, it worked in Germany didn’t it?)
nwab
When Zimbabwe starts exporting terrorists who are a result of its oppressive political system and who represent a threat to the United States, then maybe they will.
Furthermore, it’d be dickheads like you who would scream blue fucking murder if the 82nd Airborne popped into Harare tomorrow morning to clean the joint out; so shut the fuck up.
It would almost be worth it to invade just to see the looks on the faces of those making the nwab argument. Howard could make a statement “After careful consideration we have decided Nwab, Margo, Phadams et al are absolutley right, these problems are all equivalent to Iraq, so we will be invading in this order.”
Posted by Dean McAskil on 2005 04 03 at 12:34 PM • permalinkPeople, it’s been thirty years. It’s time to stop blaming the white minority of three decades ago for Zimbabwe’s troubles today..
Not that I expect this to happen. Here in California, if you complain about an ongoing social problem, the first words out of a good lefty’s mouth are still, “Well, if Governor Reagan…”
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 04 03 at 12:43 PM • permalinknwab:
What is the international community going to do about Mugabe? I keep hearing how they can fix everything with a little multinational diplomacy so perhaps they should stop bitching at the US and start doing something contructive.
BTW if Mugabe tries to kill a president, gives aid and comfort to terrorists, ignores a dozen mandatory UN resolutions, shoots at American pilots and just plain screws around with people to the point that you have no idea what the crazy bastard might do next, maybe the US will invade.
But I doubt it. Africa is not as strategic as the ME. The anti American Europeans really should use their influence to do something with Africa other than ban DDT and run guns. So far Bush has done more to alleviate hunger and to help fights than any of them have.
and richard is right… sooner or later the blacks of Zimbabwe have to stop blaming the white man for everything and start creating decent governments.
This country was once known as the bread basket of Africa and now it can not feed itself.
I look at Zimbabwe and Venezuala and it is as if Hugo Chavez and Mugabe are in a race for the bottom to establish who can take a country with natural resources and destroy it the fastest all the while blaming de man.
Hmmm.
As an American I must say that, after all the crap we took over Iraq, the rest of the world can go to hell.
You want it fixed? You go fix it.
Posted by memomachine on 2005 04 03 at 01:34 PM • permalinkMaybe it’s just me, but I don’t recall nwab’s Lefty friends actually ever *fixing* anything of and consequence. All their solutions appear to require continued government programs and/or interference forever. Got an example of a problem “fixed” nwab?
Posted by JorgXMcKie on 2005 04 03 at 04:08 PM • permalinkEd — the problem is, the yurpeens can sell guns but they can’t find yurpeens to actually use them on behalf of their country’s interests, let alone the world’s…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 04 03 at 04:43 PM • permalinkI am rested and returned.
NWAB - When you argue against points your opponents do not hold because you’re either making shit up or incapable of actually understanding your opponents’ position, that is called “knocking down a strawman”.
By trying to argue that we are “pretending” there weren’t any other factors in Iraq, you’re attacking a position we don’t hold.
For example, if I were to return the favor and guess that you think those “other factors” are the JOOOOOOOOOOOOOS, I would be guilty of attacking a position you have not taken. Yet, anyway.
Frankly, hearing that you stick up for a freak like Neville doesn’t speak much for your state of mind, so at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if you think there’s some wicked
JewNeocon pulling the strings for the sake ofother JewsZionists and Israel.I read an article, maybe in the Guardian (hell, it could have been on this web site, I have like no memory and more), that more and more citizens of Zimbabwe are wishing that white rule was back.
That’s both sad. And it makes sense.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 04 03 at 09:34 PM • permalinkNwab:
What my strawman (is this a Wizard of Oz reference?) is pointing to is the fact that - as you and Michael have identified - there was more to the invasion of Iraq than a heartfelt desire for liberation. So let’s cut the crap and stop pretending.A strawman is a false argument you attribute to your opponent for the purpose of knocking it down to “prove” your opponent wrong.
The “why aren’t we invading X, oh that’s right you really don’t believe in liberation” argument is a strawman.
Question: are you one of the ones who likes to claim our forces are bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan? Don’t be shy, it’s just a simple question. *evil grin*
Posted by Patrick Chester on 2005 04 03 at 11:23 PM • permalinkThe nwab line of argumenting in a nutshell:
Actual action taken: Invasion (Iraq) — nwab’s complaint: “Where’s the diplomacy, you warmongers?”
Actual action taken: Diplomatic sabre-rattling (see Downer quoted by Tim) — nwab’s complaint: “Where’s the invasion, you pansies?”
There’s just no pleasing some folks. One could even get the idea it’s all just about being contrarian and stuff, and not actually about making workable alternative proposals. Could[/I], mind you. Far be it from me to imply nwab is merely posting here to be contrarian and irritating.
People, please!!!! Really, nwab’s problem is simple: Iraq is going fairly well. Not perfect, but it is most certainly not the quagmire of blood and death much of the left predicted (and hoped) it would be.
What does nwab have to complain about now???????
Thus his begging for the invasion of Zimbabwe. He’ll have a new target to fling his feces at.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 04 04 at 01:32 AM • permalinkMan, if this keeps up he’ll be forced to limit his stupid bullshit to trying to change the subject when we make fun of Margo.
I think Maxi misread what I wrote. The invasion of Iraq was intended to catalyze reform towards more consensual government in the Middle East, that was why I made the point about Zimbabwe not doing so in Africa as a reason for not invading immediately, no matter how intrisically desireable in the abstract that might be in order to deliver people from a mad tyrant. Catalyzing reform towards more consensual government is liberation, and it is extending that reform to Syria, Lebanon, Iran and other ME countries that is the more urgent thing the USA has to do now. Yes Maxi, let us cut the crap, and have the anti-Iraq Campaign people admit that they got everything wrong, through their hatred for the USA or for Bush personally.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2005 04 04 at 11:31 PM • permalinkGentlemen, please. Hold the hounds.
If Lonie is correct and it is ok to invade a M East country ‘cos the rest of the area needs a good example, who can give us a run down on the neighbours of Zimbabwe?
I gather a few of you are “military” men (albeit behind PC screens) - do you know your geography? Does anyone (and I don’t necessarily mean here) truly understand the political economy of modern Africa? I am sure that Downer would not profess to – Lonie’s excuse is a façade in the face of difficulty.
It seems to me - a casual, armchair, female observer - that from Bouganville (since WWII, for those who recall) to the Solomons we have been convinced that we are taking up arms for good cause, yet many other good causes are ignored or politically sidelined.
I aim the “hypocrisy” stick against the comfy men in big buildings and nice suits, not the commentators here. The empty rhetoric of “freedomâ€? and “democracyâ€? – which would be subjected to Tim’s scrutiny under other circumstances – is revealed for what it is when we take a fair dinkum look at the world.
Time to listen to the far right and admit that Iraq had nothing to do with democracy, and that’s why we won’t do anything about Mugabe.
Why is it so hard for you drongoes to accept that I can share your experience of the world yet be dissatisfied with the state of it?
Sortelli, click the mouse and read.
nwab, you’re wrong. The war in Iraq had everything to do with democracy. You and I can engage in a debate in another thread in the near future. But I don’t think you’re considered all the issues yet. You’ve left much out of your deliberation. Such as ... changing the system of government and governing in the Middle East to fight the inculbation of radical fundamental Islam. In so doing, preventing future acts of terror of a horrific magnitude.
There it is nwab. That’s why we’re there. If you are any older than 22, you really should know that by now.
I hope that didn’t come off as condescending. It’s just that I had to sit down and explain the same damn thing, from A to Z, to my older brother of all people. A man who grew into manhood during the Vietnam War. It took a whole evening and a whole lot of connecting the dots, but now he seems to understand.
I still think he’s an idiot for doubting President Bush.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 04 05 at 10:17 PM • permalinkI already read the link nwab, and it’s a shame you learned nothing from it. Now you’re just trying to attack the motivations of “comfy men in nice suits” for supporting the war, which has nothing to do with whether it’s right or wrong to support the war and does nothing to engage our reasons for supporting it. Dressing up your strawmen in nice suits doesn’t change a thing.
You want to know why we drongos don’t take you seriously? Look at your posts. Why is it so hard for you to understand that your hypocrisy stick is intellectually worthless? Do you think you’re some sort of friggin’ scholar bringing up points that we haven’t heard from a thousand other slack-jawed naysayers? If you want to learn how to change our minds you’re going to have to learn how to actually understand where we’re coming from.
Honest question: Do you listen to the members of the, er, “far right” that think there’s Jews behind this all? You haven’t acknowledged that and I’d appreciate it if you cleared that up. Would do a lot for your Not Worth Answering Back status ‘round here.
If Lonie is correct and it is ok to invade a M East country ‘cos the rest of the area needs a good example, who can give us a run down on the neighbours of Zimbabwe?
I suggest that you give us the campaign plan, nwab. If you think it should be done, do the legwork and show us how it can be done. It is your idea, after all. If you can’t show us, either because you can’t or won’t, stop your yapping. This is called “put up or shut up”.
I gather a few of you are “military� men (albeit behind PC screens) - do you know your geography? Does anyone (and I don’t necessarily mean here) truly understand the political economy of modern Africa? I am sure that Downer would not profess to – Lonie’s excuse is a façade in the face of difficulty.
More of the same. If you have something to offer besides “Well, golly gee, you invaded Iraq, why can’t you invade Zimbabwe?”, do so. Else you are merely whinging that we aren’t catering to your whims.
It seems to me - a casual, armchair, female observer - that from Bouganville (since WWII, for those who recall) to the Solomons we have been convinced that we are taking up arms for good cause, yet many other good causes are ignored or politically sidelined.
The actions in Iraq were decried as “unilateral”. You are crying for much the same thing here, under the heading of “good cause”. Zimbabwe would likely be such a cause (although it isn’t a member of the Axis Of Evil, that government is just evil). But, in pointing your “stick” at us, are you saying that unilateralism works? That you accept it?
Answer carefully. As Sortelli said, it’ll help with your Not Answering Back status.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 04 06 at 01:54 AM • permalinkWell, Sortelli, I consider myself a helper and a giver as well. I like to help fools like nwab hang themselves by giving them all the rope they need.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 04 06 at 03:47 AM • permalink
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When is the invasion?