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FAITH INSULTED
Apologies for infrequent posting, but I’ve been caught up in Anglican rioting:
The Vatican has described the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as “not proper Churches” in a document issued with the full authority of the Pope.
Anglican leaders reacted with dismay, accusing the Roman Catholic Church of paradoxical behaviour. They said that the new 16-page document outling the “defects” of non-Catholic churches constituted a major obstacle to ecumenism.
By “caught up in”, of course, I mean leading. So far we’ve torched four Catholic schools, an effigy of Archbishop Daniel Mannix, and a Sopranos DVD. The Orthodoxers briefly captured Peter Costello, but had to let him go when they found out he was some kind of Baptist.
UPDATE. Sectarian violence erupts in comments. I’ll fix this by installing MickBlock™.
Well, what to expect? Put an Inquisitor in as Pope and what do you get? The Inquisition. Stake burnings to resume shortly.
(My Catholic mother in law, who would have been an old-style Tridentine Catholic except for the forty years of Vatican II she’s gotten used to, will view this with a jaundiced eye)
Thanks for the laugh tonight Tim! Needed it after hearing how Kevvie is taking on Woolies and Coles when he’s PM - he’s going to check the prices of carrots and toilet paper and tomato sauce etc to make sure we don’t get ripped off - and people will really believe he can do that!
Now I’d better go and hide my Virgin Mary statuePosted by aussiemagpie on 2007 07 11 at 08:33 AM • permalinkOur Presbyterian church has formed a group, henceforth to be known as The Sword of God! * We intend to start burning things, big things, in a very spectatcular way. Once funds are found to buy a Bic lighter. And probably some gasoline. Or lighter fluid. We’ll probaby need some other stuff too. Like rags. I’m not really sure. We’re making it up as we go.
* That name is not exactly official. There was some disagreement on what we should go by. Some wanted The People’s Army of God. Some wanted God’s Army of the People. Others simply wanted to go by The Mapledale Presbyterian Church, Indignation Division. And then someone said “well, why don’t we just call it “Bill, Doug, Tom, and Wron”?
We really could use someone to help us plan this stuff.
Posted by wronwright on 2007 07 11 at 08:33 AM • permalinkHeh. Whenever I see the name Dr Daniel Mannix, I think of this little chappyand wonder if there is some truth to the rumour of familial relationship.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 07 11 at 08:34 AM • permalink#12 “Some wanted God’s Army of the People.”
Splitters!
Posted by ThinAndBritish on 2007 07 11 at 08:35 AM • permalinkWell “the Hammer” is proving that isn’t he? And so many people got upset with me for thinking his appointment might not be too wise.
Posted by Andrew Ian Dodge on 2007 07 11 at 08:36 AM • permalinkConsidering that it was the catholics that wreaked such havoc upon the caliphate over all those Crusades, I know where I’ll be laying my money.
Bwahahahahahah! Those danged methodists and anglicans and pentocostals and presbys and 7th Day Adventists and lutherans and calvinists and whoever I’ve forgotten don’t stand a chance!
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 07 11 at 08:37 AM • permalink#21. Well, yeah, of course. And the problem with that is?
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 07 11 at 08:40 AM • permalinkThe Catholic Church doesn’t hate gays, just as the Protestant Church doesn’t. They actually love the person. They reject the sin.
But still, Rome has made the first move. We’ll make ours. Later today I’m meeting up with the Amish faction to discuss “trotting by attacks” they’re planning.
Posted by wronwright on 2007 07 11 at 08:51 AM • permalink#24. The catholic church does not hate gays. Ultimately it is up to the gay person to deal with their issues with God and sin.
I don’t know where you get your ideas about taking Communion and eating penis, but I’ve never taken Communion on my knees, and I can assure you there is nothing remotely erotic or sexual about it.
The mind boggles.
Posted by Nilknarf Arbed on 2007 07 11 at 08:52 AM • permalinkEllen, the Amish are definitely evil. They’ve been planning this war with the Catholics for decades, honing their pie making skills, improving on their rhubarb pie recipes.
I don’t trust em! But still, an enemy of an enemy ...
Posted by wronwright on 2007 07 11 at 09:03 AM • permalink#27, Ash,
Our various cats have proved the Catholic cat theory through the years. Each new kitty has put the presbyterian/anglican spouse on notice until he capitulates and falls in love. They treat him OK once that happens.
The spouse’s protestant aunt and uncle eventually ceased visiting us because every cat in the line bailed them up at the door. Protestants don’t like cats at all, and it seems to be mutual. I gather it’s something to do with the Reformation, witches, cats and stuff.
Fortunately, aunty and uncle liked us more than they hated the cats, judging by the will.Haec Ecclesia, in hoc mundo ut societas constituta et ordinata, subsistit in Ecclesia catholica, a sucessore Petri et Episcopis in eius compaginem gubernata, licet extra eius compaginem elementa plura sanctificationis et veritatis inveniatur, quae ut dona Ecclesiae Christi propria ad unitatem catholicam impellunt.
This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him, although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.
The Holy See is simply reaffirming the true meaning of this passage of Lumen Gentium, promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1964 - following that document’s acceptance by the Fathers at Vatican II. Pope Benedict is not repudiating Vatican II but insisting on that council’s actual teaching. (What he has also done in his recently promulgated motu proprio on the Tridentine Mass - mindlessly marginalised by obscurantist bowdlerisers and liturgical vandals).
The key words are (and have been for years - this is not a new debate) “subsistit in”, whose importance for Benedict’s purposes is broadly explained here.
Talk of a “setback” or of a new, harsher Catholic attitude on inter-church relations is not only dishonest, historically ignorant and hysterical but also disrespectful. That’s because the bedrock principle of genuine ecumenism (as opposed to ostentatious backslapping) is an ecclesial community’s honesty about what it truly believes about itself.
The new die-hards in the Catholic Church are those who cling to their invented, hyper-liberal view of Vatican II and what it actually taught. They need to read the signs of the times - signa temporum - and embrace Benedictine modernity.
How long before Jessie Jackson deploys as the self-imposed mediator?
Sorry, TB, but ol’ Jesse is too busy saving us
from ourselves. Maybe Al Sharpton is available?Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 07 11 at 09:24 AM • permalinkFor an additional Catholic take, see Relapsed Catholic (scroll down to “Mark Shea Explains New Vatican Document”). I have nothing to add to C.L.‘s comment, above, which I consider an accurate representation of my own opinion on the matter, though stated with a precision and eloquence that far exceeds my meager ability in the realm of theological discourse.
Crap you guys are asleep at the wheel, nearly 40 posts and nobody came up with -
Presbyterians Against Catholic Oppression.
Posted by joe bagadonuts on 2007 07 11 at 09:44 AM • permalinkDamn, Dan.
That is truly ugly.
The love child of Margo and Shiek Al perhaps?
Posted by joe bagadonuts on 2007 07 11 at 09:58 AM • permalinkGo ask Philly what happened the last time they tried to keep the Mackerel Snappera in line or Boston, or New York…
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 07 11 at 10:04 AM • permalinkThanks, Paco - you’re too kind.
Mackerel Snapper. I hadn’t heard that phrase before and in the last 36 hours I’ve heard it twice. The first time was in Heaven Knows Mr Ellison (Bob Mitchum, Deborah Kerr, 1957), watched on DVD. Stranded USMC corporal Mitchum starts to use it when discussing his Catholic comrades in the Corps, then checks himself. His fellow strandee on this abandoned Pacific island in the middle of World War II is, after all, Oscar winner Kerr’s missionary nun! Enjoyable flick. Our present, more me-centric age probably prefers Tom Hanks stranded with a soccer ball - but I may be wrong about that.
#35 I agree with Paco here (and most other places) C.L.
You’ve got an uncanny knack for revealing the heart of matters, and this time is no exception. I hereby recant and apologize for my rabble rousing on this topic a couple of threads ago.
I really know little about the Catholic Church or its teachings, much less the intent of the Pope concerning matters relating to the Catholic Church.I do know how ticked off I get when people start ignorantly flailing my faith, and as a Christian, I definitely should have known better. Sorry my friend!
My two closest friends in high school were army brats . I attended the local public school they the local catholic school. One night we were riding by their school and noticed quite a few cars parked in the lot. They were somewhat mystified . Both wondered aloud what the occasion was. I quipped as is my wont “maybe its a fish fry”. They laughed so hard I thought they would piss their pants. This tale illustrates the current state of protestant catholic sectarian violence in my neck of the woods. Nonexistent.
The Jews are God’s chosen people
The Catholics, God’s one true church
The Muslims shout “Death to the infidels”
And the Greenies put their faith in the BirchMe, I sits on my front porch with a bottle of beer in my hand
Which I raise to my lips in a prayer of sips as the sun sets over the land.Posted by joe bagadonuts on 2007 07 11 at 10:52 AM • permalinkDave S.—Shows yer theological iggerance. That whole issue was resolved in the Diet of Points, 1328. The head of the pin shall show no greater than one-thousandth part of the least fingernail of the king.
Then metric came along and that was no fun at all.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2007 07 11 at 10:54 AM • permalinkOK, religious folks, I’m a bit confused. Please enlighten me…
It seems to me that if a person is of a certain religion, it’s because he believes that particular religion is the “true” one. So if the Pope says the Catholic faith is the One True Religion, he’s just saying out loud what a Baptist says in deed when he goes to a Baptist service. Yes?
Also, as a former Catholic, I know that Catholicism does not hold that non-Catholics cannot get into Heaven (at least, that’s the way I was taught. Perhaps the official doctrine is different). What matters most is that you’re a good person. I know of at least one Protestant denomination that says you’re going to Hell if you’re not one of them.
So, it seems the Protestants doth protest too much.
The only reason the Pope made his statement is that Presbyterians do not issue fatwas. It is well known that Episcopalians do issue fatwas - but they are only implemented after cocktail hour - which of course never ends. The Amish are no threat, at least at in the summer. It is the high season for playing chicken ... car versus buggy division ...just now. The Methodists are unable to organize a strike force because I have stolen their covered dish and casserole recipes - which of course has destroyed any sense of community they ever had.
What is it with people named Jesse and being idiots?
I dunno, Ash, maybe it’s a similar problem to people named “Mohammed”?
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2007 07 11 at 11:43 AM • permalinkWhy are the Mormons being left out of this ?
Posted by Harry Bergeron on 2007 07 11 at 11:55 AM • permalinkIt’s too late for the Papists to apologize. The torch mob is assembling as I speak. One, two, three. Okay, that’s enough people.
Billy Bob, start the ululating. Ulululululululululu.
Posted by wronwright on 2007 07 11 at 12:48 PM • permalinkMemo
To: His Holiness, Pope Benedict
From: General Paco, Papal Action Committee on Orthodoxy
Subject: Catholic military operations in the United StatesI regret to report that the military strikes against against certain Protestant targets in the U.S. have suffered significant setbacks. A guerilla organization in Ohio - operating under the name of The Amish/Baptist Alliance, and sounding the battle cry “One Wron Makes a Wright” - have repulsed heroic assaults made by The Little Sisters of the Poor. It appears that seltzer bottles filled with holy water are ineffective against pitchforks and scythes. Also, internal dissension on the appropriate language to be used in official PACO communications has led to poor efficiency in the field. Senior staff have insisted on Latin, whereas the non-coms have pushed for English. Since this is the United States, we finally settled on Spanish, but the Berlitz tapes we received for use by non-Spanish-speakers were for instruction in Serbo-Croatian.
Complicating matters is the fact that large groups of Muslims have declared jihad against everybody, including, apparently, themselves. This has led, among other things, to massive disruptions in supplies, as numerous 7-11’s are now no longer available to us.
Finally, since the Protestants know that we are compelled to attend mass on Sundays, they have cunningly chosen that day of the week to ransack our camps, stealing our liquor, cigars, frozen fishsticks and - if I might intrude with the mention of a merely personal loss - my ceremonial Kinghts of Columbus sword, which I obtained at great price at a pawn shop in Toledo. Oh, and one of these heretics urinated in my cocked hat (the one with the ostrich feather - the hat, not the heretic). Incidentally, please see, attached, my request for reimbursement.
So, as you see, your Holiness, the Paco Armada has not fared well. However, our morale is good, and the troops are sustained by their faith in the Cause, and by the possibility of scoring some very tasty baked goods when we ultimately defeat the Amish/Baptists bandits.
#61, #64 and others. It more or less boils down to works-based vs. faith-based salvation. I cannot speak with any authority on the position of the Catholic Church, but certain protestant denominations maintain that you can only earn your way into heaven if you’ve done enough good (works based), basically you have to earn your way into heaven. At Judgment Day, we’ll all have to reckon for our sins (which both sides believe), and if your good deeds out-weigh your sins, you’re in. If not, off to the lake of fire and eternal damnation with ye. Others maintain that no matter what good anyone may do, it is never good enough for admittance (since God is perfect and accepts no flaws). The faith-based folks will say that is why Jesus was sent to Earth, to receive our punishment for sin on our behalf. Therefore the only way into heaven is to accept that Christ is the Son of God, that He died on the cross for our sins, rose physically from death on the 3rd day and is alive now in heaven preparing for His return.
#54: T-Bob - I was not in the slightest offended by anything you’ve had to say on this (or any other) subject. I think it is great that we can debate high and ghostly matters, and even have fun with each other’s differences, without feeling a need to blow up trains or cut people’s heads off. I wish certain other religious folk (of no appearance) felt the same way.
#72 Paco, thank you. That’s probably my most favorite thing about this blog. The fact that we can and do rip each other pretty hard, most folks here have the good sense not to things personally. I was just stating my regret for thoughtlessly tearing into someone’s faith (or at least the leaders of their faith) without stopping to think. I remembered how upset I get when my faith is assaulted. I tend to go off half-cocked a lot, and wanted to make sure that I’m not offending the folks here whom I respect. As for the rest of you rabble: Pffffffffttt!
OK then, so were cool about that little Holy Water / Tardis Windshield Washer Fluid incident from last year?
#61
Exactly.
No one belongs to a church because they think it’s the wrong one. Of course the Pope says that the Catholic church is the proper church.
The same is the case with any of the Protestant churches. Each and every one of them believe that they are right and others are… less so.
I expect it and it’s never bothered me in any way, not even the ones that think being less right means going to hell.
If anyone seriously protests the Pope’s statements I can only think that they protest too much.
The question of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin can be answered by answering this simple questios; how many did you invite?
Now, what deep philosophical question can be answered by answering this question? “Are you filling or are you drinking?”
Posted by mythusmage on 2007 07 11 at 05:23 PM • permalinkI was raised in a Lutheran church by my evangelical mother and married a good catholic girl. So can someone tell me where I stand when my daughter is baptised this sunday in the church we married in (catholic)? I’d hate to offend anyone.
I did see a news item last night of car loads of people doing burnouts in front of catholic churches, but I thought that was just the mormons having a joke.
Welcome to the Presbyterian Anti-Catholic Oganization, my brothers.
Posted by deadparrot on 2007 07 11 at 06:30 PM • permalink35 well said.
Know the doctrine before you take a swing at some garbled cartoon version of it.That said, the Pope has clearly noticed with awe and envy how the Caliphate of Bin Laden (Paco Be Upon Him) expandeth by the day, and is now marshaling the legions of the Faithful for a counterattack culminating in control of the whole world except for Al Gore, whom nobody wants.
Posted by arrowhead ripper on 2007 07 11 at 06:56 PM • permalinkTom Lehrer said it best in “National Brotherhood Week”:
“Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews!”(No offense meant to any readers…)
Posted by Tex Lovera on 2007 07 11 at 06:57 PM • permalinkThis guy goes to heaven.
St Peter takes him for a tour.
They come to a compound surrounded by very high walls.
St. Peter explains that this compound is reserved exclusively for Catholics.
When asked why, St. Peter says “because they think they are the only ones up here”
Its great to be able to laugh about ourselves.
Posted by LaVallette on 2007 07 11 at 09:02 PM • permalinkI see the thin lipped Micks are dominating debate. Obviously all the Proddy dogs are busy at work and unable to comment.
I tell you, this PACO guy has his fingers in a lot of different pies (not just Amish and Baptist rhubarb ones). I have it on good authority that communion is now referrred to as “Papally Approved Communion Offering” rather than “Body of Christ”.
Posted by Infidel Tiger on 2007 07 11 at 09:08 PM • permalinkThe Anglican Church should remind itself from time to time of its roots.
Posted by Kyda Sylvester on 2007 07 11 at 09:38 PM • permalinkCathars and Catholics, all I’m sayin, Cathars and Catholics.
Err, or is that Cadillacs and Catholics?
Shit, now I got me some reading to do.
But now that we have solid confimation that the Pope is indeed Catholic, what is the consensus on the Bear question?
Posted by joe bagadonuts on 2007 07 11 at 09:43 PM • permalinkIt’s almost worth being a Catholic just to piss off all the bien pensants - you’ve got the humourless left hating you on one side and the equally worthless libertarian right hating you on the other side. It’s great fun. If I wasn’t a Catholic I’d have to find another way to get under the skin of those wankers.
Posted by Pig Head Sucker on 2007 07 11 at 09:47 PM • permalinkAnd while my typing fingers are still hot.
List of websites that do not exist -
askabaptist.com
askaluthern.com
askamethodist.com
askabudhist.com
askapagan.com
askaatheist.comList of websites that do exist
askacatholic.com
askahindu.com (is that Kharma or what?)
askamuslim.com - which redirects to the Muxlim blog. (What the hell is a Muxlim anyway?)
askachristian.com - where the first listing is “Need help with the IRS?” (Talk about your “Heaven and Hell” concepts!)
askajew.com - which interestingly leads to a Red Hat Enterprise Linux test page, (Jewish cabal conspiracy theories anyone?)Posted by joe bagadonuts on 2007 07 11 at 10:23 PM • permalinkOne thing I have never understood:
* the catholic church hates gays
* they say that the communion wafer is actually Christ and eating it is the same as eating Christ - penis and all - often while on one’s knees.Am I the only one who thinks there is a contradiction?
Posted by ellenNo, no, no! That’s CANNIBALISM. Sheesh, can’t you bigots get your bigotry right these days? What’s the world coming to?
It’d only be gay if…no, no, won’t go there, wouldn’t be prudent.
Texas Bob #6: Depends. How many cameras will there be?
As for Eucumenicism, being raised in a Hardrock Baptist community with a strong Catholic presence in the county, I was always pissed that the Catholics had all the good jokes.However. A Rabbi, a Priest, and a Baptist preacher were discussing eucumenicism, and after many hours finally decided that what they each did was not that different. As the preacher put it, “we’re all doing the Lord’s work. Each of you in your own way, and I in His.”
Posted by JorgXMcKie on 2007 07 12 at 01:02 AM • permalinkOne’s not amused!
The Queen…. Is annie working for the pope?
This is the extraordinary moment the Queen lost her temper and stormed out of a photoshoot, after a celebrity photographer dared ask her to remove her crown.
The astonishing footage is taken from a new BBC documentary entitled A Year With The Queen and captures the moment when Her Majesty lost her cool.
During the programme photographer US celebrity snapper Annie Leibovitz sizes up the Queen in her full regalia and ventures: “I think it will look better without the crown, because the garter robe is so…”
``So can someone tell me where I stand when my daughter is baptised this sunday in the church we married in (catholic)?’‘
Why, right next to the font, along with your wife and the godparents.
Posted by Sonetka's Mom on 2007 07 12 at 09:25 AM • permalinkA man walked into the ladies department of a Macy’s and shyly walked up to the woman behind the counter and said, “I’d like to buy a bra for my wife.
“What type of bra?” asked the clerk.
“Type?” inquires the man, “There’s more than one type?
“Look around,” said the saleslady, as she showed a sea of bras in every shape, size, color and material imaginable. “Actually, even with all of this variety, there are really only four types of bras to choose from.”Relieved, the man asked about the types. The saleslady replied: “There are the Catholic, the Salvation Army, the Presbyterian, and the Baptist bras.”
Now totally befuddled, the man asked about the differences between them.
The Saleslady responded, “It is all really quite simple… The Catholic type supports the masses. The Salvation Army type lifts the fallen, The Presbyterian type keeps them staunch and upright, and The Baptist makes mountains out of mole hills.”
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So tell me, have the Muslims called for calm and asked for special protection from the backlash?