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Seattle reader Raymond Fox emails:
I just read your blog item concerning Mary Mapes’ new book. If you had any but the most base motives you would be able to admit that, although the documents MAY have been forged, the authenticity of the information in them is beyond reproach. That is what this whole “debate” SHOULD have been about. But the truth isn’t something the Right is particularly interested in, is it? One look at the Swift Boating of John Kerry is enough to convince anyone of that. GOP campaign 2004 problem: W skipped out on service, John Kerry is a decorated Veteran. John Kerry is campaigning strongly on his service record. Solution: fabricate negative record through ancient and long-discredited group which was a front for Dick Nixon’s plumbers. This group was established by Nixon’s people around a bitter vet who was pissed at Kerry for his testimony to Congress. Make the campaign about Kerry’s record rather than W’s.
The bottom line, bottom feeder, is that W did skip his service and was never prosecuted for it. But then, by the standards of his “Presidency” this fact is a very minor matter. Much more important are his war crimes, his cabal of criminal cronies, etc.
Ray Fox
Seattle, WA
He says “cabal of criminal cronies” like it’s a bad thing.
Is “cabal of criminal cronies” another term for “fascist-in-training”?
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 12 07 at 10:41 AM • permalinkSo, Raymond, your proof that the “authenticity of the information is beyond reproach (are you sure this is the word you wanted to use? “Refutation”, perhaps?)” would be what exactly? Isn’t THAT what this debate should be about? Or your proof of any of your contentions? Oh, proof doesn’t matter. Everybody knows these lies you trot out are actually truths. So why are you demanding proof that the documents are forged, ignoring, as Mapes does, where the burden of proving slanderous calumnies should lie?
Posted by robert speirs on 2005 12 07 at 10:42 AM • permalinkYou also get a look here at how they were able to dismiss the Swiftboaters. They read somewhere some SBV’er was not a nice person so they were able to dismiss anything a group of over 200 of them might claim.
Leaving aside the obvious contradiction with the lack of skepticism about Mapes’ story, it illustrates how rabid partisans of all stripes are able to finds excuses to look away from anything that might challenge what they so dearly want to believe.
Posted by spongeworthy on 2005 12 07 at 11:01 AM • permalinkBTW, this is the first time I’m actually hearing the claim that “Richard Nixon’s people” are directly responsible for the existence of Swiftboat Vets For Truth. I suppose Ray Fox isn’t a garden-variety moron, but actually in the Lataan class where conspiracy theories aren’t merely passed on, but actually spun further.
I’d point out how he fervently believes that the TANG information is accurate even though it’s been shown that it isn’t, and simultaneously that the Swifties are “long-discredited” even though the great majority of their claims has never been addressed, let alone debunked by the Kerry camp, but then it’s all pointless debating with a terminally clueless leftbot who couldn’t find a fact if his life depended on it.
Ray could provide a more useful public service from his Seattle aerie by confirming the color of the Seahawks’ uniforms. Do you guys chant, “Go BIg Lead?”
Posted by chinesearithmetic on 2005 12 07 at 11:23 AM • permalinkDude, it’s Seattle. That’s basically Byron Bay with some indoor plumbing.
And it’s the old, incontrovertible “everybody knows” defense. “Everybody knows Bush dodged his service” (at 800 mph in an F-102); “everybody knows” a Chevrolet has more effect on the Earth’s temperature than the Sun; “everybody knows” wimmin can’t cut it in a man’s job; “everybody knows” them darkies is shiftless and thievin’... it is an incontrovertible affirmation of truth among the shoeless, shirtless and witless.
By the way, Mr. Fox, it’s the end of 2005. You win the prize for slowest internet ISP EVER.
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 12 07 at 11:28 AM • permalink“ancient and long-discredited group which was a front for Dick Nixon’s plumbers”
WOW! That takes the prize for creativity and imagination. Although the imagination seems baked-in due to recurring LSD flashbacks.
No wonder “fake, but accurate” resonates with this crowd—it is “reality” based on their “experience,” dude!
So it seems that the Left is now in charge of worrying about all the black helicopters. The rightwing fringe has relinquished its hold on the most absurd conspiracy theories and folks like Raymond have strapped on their tinfoil helmets and marched off to do battle with the forces of evil. Why am I not surprised that he is from Seattle?
Kerry opposed the war before enlisting in the Navy and serving an honorable tour off the coast of Vietnam. Then because he knew he was the reincarnation of Kennedy, he decided to get some easy service on swift boats which were suddenly moved to a more active area.
He faked up some wounds, got run out of Vietnam by his fellow officers and left the service.He then lied about what he saw in Vietnam, helped set up the “Winter Soldier” meetings where non-service and non Vietnam soldiers lied about Vietnam service.
He then lied in front of Congress and had talks with the North Vietnamese in Paris,
(remember Giap or somebody else said the NV knew the war was loosing support).
He fills a book with lies, and then withdraws it from circulation when he went his political career looked good.
Tells a story about Cambodia that was lies, where does this clown deserve or earn any credibility?Who in Hell is Raymond Fox? Another dhimmiwit crawling out of the woodwork that we need to pay any attention to along with the Napoleon’s crowding the nut houses? What is interesting is that the “fake, but accurate” theme proclaimed as a journalistic principle by the Mapes and Rather, and which led to their suffocation by ridicule, has been elevated to a new ethical principle in the fog shrouded world of the Raymond’s. (By the way, be suspicious of someone with two last names which are the same. I may be mistaken, but “Raymond” is also “Fox” in another tongue spoken by weasels and fools.)
Don’t try to contact Ray now. He’s having phone sex with Margo.
Posted by Mystery Meat on 2005 12 07 at 11:57 AM • permalinkalthough the documents MAY have been forged
Meaning Raymondo thinks they MAY be authentic. So a Texas Air National Guard base MAY have had a multi-thousand-dollar professional typesetting machine for some reason. And they MAY have had a trained operator to use it. And they MAY have used it for writing memos, because they MAY have wanted the prettiest, evenest kerning on routine memos and MAY have been willing to take an hour or so to produce each one. And it, coincidentally, MAY have produced memos that were 100% exact matches to the same copy produced by today’s Microsoft Word.
And Raymondo MAY be a sensible, intelligent fellow. OK, now I’m just getting nutty…
The left is a religion that worships the state, and they see themselves as preists. They want so desperately to beleive that they will ignore any and all evidence and try and in extreme cases try to destroy the evidence of their own eyes (e.g. al quaeda, the left wing fascists who call themselves anarchists)
Dave S.
You omitted:
And there MAY have been a policy that all documents created on such machine be subsequently destroyed, except for this single instance, which explains why no other memo exhibiting the questionable features has been discovered in the TANG archives.
Posted by mjones8627 on 2005 12 07 at 12:32 PM • permalinkThat letter was obviously written by Barbra Streisand
Posted by beautifulatrocities on 2005 12 07 at 12:42 PM • permalinkY’all, I’m gonna slip on over to the Brownshirt Grill and rouse up some of the boys from Lord Rove’s elite Dissent Busters® Hemp Eradication Unit. They’ve been drinking scotch all morning and just might be liquored up enough by now to bust down some hippie doors in the great pacifist northwest. Pro Bono Publico.
Ya’ll are invited too.
Just bring your favorite truncheon.BTW, could someone please fax the Skeedattle branch of Dick’s tricky plumber gang? I’m sure they’d be game for some tofu oppressing fellowship…
#18: Spot on, Rob. Someone also once said (a Russian emigre writer whose name I forget) that socialism represents a kind of deathwish of civilization (I think the concept applies to most leftists, whether explicitly socialist or not). That much is obvious from the sheer lack of humour, the ponderous earnestness, displayed by leftists. I mean, is there a less funny “funny man” than Al Franken?
Satire? Real?
Opponent has evil intentions - check
“Fake but accurate”- check
W dodged war service - check
SBV is a Rethuglican front - check
W is a war criminal - check
Obligatory “cabal” reference - checkThe Nixon’s plumbers reference tips the scales in favor of….real. Is there a satirist alive whose understanding of his subject is so deep as to pull out such a reference? Unlikely.
Aw, you’re so mean to the poor feller! I’m sure he copied all his buds on the email so they could all appreciate his “the bottom line, bottom feeder” wordplay.
He’s obviously well edjumacated.Posted by Mr. Bingley on 2005 12 07 at 01:52 PM • permalinkI was in the Illinois Air National Guard for 22 years. My civilian career took me to Texas for part of my service and my commanders were nice enough to make my guard service as flexible as the regulations allowed. The National Guard understands the importance of our civilian jobs because we are only in the military part-time and they want to keep us. Several times I drilled at Kelly AFB in San Antonio. While I was there I did menial tasks (washing aircraft, sweeping the hangar, etc.) because I was not a regular member of their unit and they didn’t know me and would of course prefer to use their own people for the important tasks that I would normally do (aircraft maintenance). After all, drill weekends are used to train THEIR people, not some guy from another unit. I remember no one from my few weekends at Kelly and I’m sure no one remembers me, and this was in the 90s, not the 60s. There were also a few occasions when I missed a training class and would have been temporarily “delinquent” in my training. But only until the next drill weekend when it was taken care of. I received normal promotions and was honorably discharged of course. Does any of this sound familiar? I’m sure if someone searched my records they would find a few irregularities too.
People who bang on about this issue know nothing about the military and certainly not the Air National Guard, and I guarantee they’ve never done anything remotely as impressive as fly an F-102.
Their self-righteous know-it-all while knowing nothing at all attitude would be humorous if it weren’t so darn irritating.
Hell with ‘em.
Mac
Has no one on the left ever questioned why, if the information in the TANG memo was true even though the document itself was forged, it was necessary to forge a document proving the information was true?
How can any of them admit the document’s a forgery and then go on to declare the information contained therein is true and keep a straight face?
The lapse of logic is astounding.
The worst part of all of this is that if Raymond even bothered to read any of this, he probably won’t have learned anything from it.
The comments by robert speirs, spongeworthy, augustr, Dave S, etc. that argue against the documents will simply be ignored. They don’t fit into his world view, and therefore they will have no effect.
He’ll probably pop up on some other web site, make the exact same arguments, and think that he’s proven his point.
Another victory for the echo chamber.
Anyone who believes the memo may not be a fake has to be so blinded by political partisanship as to ignore logic. Forget the wording or the typesetting, remember how the fax sent to CBS was a very bad copy because it had been xeroxed many times? There is no reason why a “copy of a copy of a copy of a copy..” of the memo would have been made available, other than to make it difficult to authenticate.
It wasn’t that bad a copy. I copied the original and then faxed the copy. Just like Karl told me to. Don’t exaggerate.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 12 07 at 03:20 PM • permalinkThe ironic thing about all of this is, even if the fax was genuine, 75% or more of the American people couldn’t give a fat rat’s arse.
I mean to say even if Mary Mapes had an actual memo, notarized, and witnessed and vouched for by both the author of the memo and the secretary who typed it, and even if the memo stated that George Bush is just a spoiled rich kid that is so chicken shit that he’s trying to evade his patriotic duty to fight for his country, I could not have cared less. George Bush was in his early 20’s doing his thing during the Vietnam War. I might very well had done the exact same thing (per my scenario) given the same circumstances.
The issue was not whether the fax presented accurate facts. The issue was that CBS tried to cook up a scandal to influence a US Presidential election being held during a war for blatantly biased purposes on the basis of an unquestionably fraudulent document. This was a terrible breach of trust by CBS, one that still has not been rectified or resolved.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 12 07 at 03:35 PM • permalinkI might very well had done the exact same thing (per my scenario) given the same circumstances.
I first entered the Guard through the Illinois Army National Guard, in 1985. At that time, many of the senior officers and NCOs had served in the Guard during the Vietnam War.
One of them told me how most of the team members of the Chicago Bears were in the Guard, assigned to various units around Chicago. Their coach at the time made sure these guys attended all of their drills.
If a game interfered (and there had to be conflicts), the players made up their drills on the weekdays (permissable, under the regulations then and now). The old salt telling me this story recounted how he saw Bear players sweeping floors in the General Jones Armory during the middle of the week.
My point on this (especially for the Frothing MoonBat From Seattle™, Ray Fox) is this: The Bears were in the Guard specifically to avoid being drafted for Vietnam.
So, wronwright, not only might have you done this, you would have been in prestigious company.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 12 07 at 04:05 PM • permalink13 DanG
So it seems that the Left is now in charge of worrying about all the black helicopters.
Oh I hope not. Say what you will about the wrest of his evil handiwork, (and who doesn’t?), those helos wreally looked good when fascist-in-training-2nd-class Wronwright was waxing them.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2005 12 07 at 04:29 PM • permalinkDemocrat problem during 2004 elections: Bush is well-liked by the military. Two-pronged solution: TANG story, plus find a war hero to run as a Democrat.
So they scare up a guy who, as a junior Naval officer, abandoned his command to go running across the landscape with a bandolier over his shoulder and an assault rifle in hand, shooting junior bad guys. This after forty years of sneering at “Rambo” tactics, without ever realizing that this is the one, single, solitary instance of their seeing 100% eye-to-eye with modern military thinking.
It’s just a bonus that Kerry turned out to be a loser braggart of the “first liar ain’t got a prayer” variety.
No wonder they can’t seem to think any more. The cognitive dissonance has fried their cerebellums.
Regards,
RicSo George W Bush, with the assistance of Richard Nixon and a secret cabal of plumbers, created blatantly forged documents damning his (Bush’s) national service, which he then leaked to the media confident that the media would not detect the obvious forgery but fly into a frenzy of condemnation allowing the media to be discredited for the charlatans they are by an army of pyjama clad nerds. And this would nullify Kerry’s attempt to make political capital of his war record. And it worked like a charm. And people say Bush is an idiot.
The ironic thing about all of this is, even if the fax was genuine, 75% or more of the American people couldn’t give a fat rat’s arse.
This is the basic point they still don’t get. Barring Bush turning out to be the BTK killer, there’s nothing in his pre-presidency life that mattered by the time of his RE-election. (Note “re.”) A challenger runs on his whole life, but an incumbent runs on the last four years in office, period, end of story. They never got that.
Don’t you right-wing bastards try confusing me with the god-damned facts! The memo is fake, but its accurate! How loud do I have to say it?
/Foxy Laddy
Posted by Son of a Pig and a Monkey on 2005 12 07 at 08:30 PM • permalinkMike G,
Nope, they sure didn’t, and probably never will. The Donks’ audience-testing of their campaign strategy for next year’s midterms of “Iraq is a lost cause and we must abandon it as fast as possible… for the sake of the troops” seems to be falling flat, in fact has caused something of a backlash. Enormous sums will be spent, vast quantities of hot air will be expended and we’ll probably see the same Congressional makeup as we have now, especially since very few seats in marginal districts are up for grabs.
BTW, the latest episode of the Tex vs Thom is up. The dim-bulb Greenie is spinning like a top. What a buffoon.
Posted by Spiny Norman on 2005 12 07 at 08:36 PM • permalinkLet me expand upon Mike G’s thoughts. Bush and Kerry were competing on their capability to serve as commander in chief. Bush had FOUR YEARS of actual experience as commander in chief on which the voter could base his opinion. Previous part-time military service was completely irrelevant to all but those suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome. This is what they still don’t get.
Posted by Tommy Shanks on 2005 12 07 at 09:46 PM • permalinkI think the commenters here have been WAAAAAY too hard on Mr. Fox. He makes some interesting points, including a couple that deserve follow up.
He seems to insist that the TANG charges are true, that the President was negligent in his service. He indicates he has proof. I would really like to see it.
He is convinced that the SwiftVets are somehow connected to the Nixon White House. I would really like to see the proof of that.
Mr. Fox seems to be enthralled with Kerry’s campaigning on his Vietnam service record. Without getting into the actual quality or real life lessons of those almost four months, I would really like to know what military service in a war over 30 years ago has to do with the issues the country faces today. I would espeically like to understand how the duties of the commander of a Swift Boat qualify one to be President.
Now we come to the war crimes. Again, please be specific. What crimes and under what legal authority would he be tried.
Tim, you should invite Mr. Fox to show up to the party with P.R.O.O.F. Break this story [stories] and you will get a Pulitzer.
So, wronwright, not only might have you done this, you would have been in prestigious company.
Are you referring to my quarterback skills? Well, I will admit it’s true that I can still throw a rather good spiral perhaps 30, maybe 40 yards. But could I play with the Chicago Bears? Maybe a few years ago. I’m really too old for that now. Probably.
Or are you talking about joining the Guard to avoid active duty?
Posted by wronwright on 2005 12 07 at 10:53 PM • permalinkFor the record, Karl Rove himself promoted me to Fascist Trainer 1st Class. I’m not training, I’m doing the training. Bucko.
I’m also being groomed by Karl in preparation for my impending ascension as a full fledged member of the Evil Death Cult Known as Neoconservatism. And believe you me, once I figure out who’s been blackballing me in every vote (grrrrrrrr), I will become a full member.
Once that happens, I get it all baby. The car, the bi-weekly check, the key to the special washroom at the White House. Ev-er-y-thing.
Posted by wronwright on 2005 12 07 at 11:00 PM • permalinkwronwright is training our fascists?! Why do the words Suez 73 come to mind…
Or is this that “remedial fascism” program Our Dark Master was talking about setting up, to bring the tyrrany of the neocons to the short bus…?
Posted by richard mcenroe on 2005 12 07 at 11:26 PM • permalinkwronwright, I was thinking more of Bill Clinton, He Who Had A Rhodes Scholarship And Never Inhaled™.
Whether your relation with Good Ol’ Bubba™ is that of scholarship or breathing shallowly remains to be seen.
Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2005 12 07 at 11:34 PM • permalinkI want to take a harder look at the coffee bean-munching Seattleftist’s mantra-regurgitating statement
“...although the documents MAY have been forged, the authenticity of the information in them is beyond reproach.”
The MAY means that in all probability they weren’t forged, but the slimmest of possibilities exist that it COULD have been a forgery. It’s a sop to the right to use the conditional here. But the idea that the authenticity of the information is beyond reproach, what the hell does that mean? The American Oxford says this:
above (or beyond)
reproach such that no
criticism can be made;
perfect.So, Ray the Seattle butt-monkey has bought into the left’s insanity to the point that the information in a forgery is perfect. No criticism can be made of this information. It’s f*cking perfect you brownshirted hippie-lynching oil-soaked black-ops perpetrating doc martin-wielding bastards!
It’s the first time I have ever heard anyone say that the information in a forgery is perfect, especially when the forgery itself is so imperfect. Listen, Mr. Fox, let’s stop and try to think clearly for the briefest of instants, OK? Is the information in a counterfeit $20 bill perfect? No. It’s completely imperfect. It’s worth nothing, not even 20 cents. It’s not worth $20 because it is not authentic. It’s a g*ddamned forgery, you stupid bastard! It makes people think the information contained in it is real which misleads them into accepting it which ultimately injures them in some way. That is why forgery is a crime. It represents the passing of false information in a plausible package.
That is the logic we are faced with here. No wonder they lost.
#15 Stats,
You are probably thinking of renard, which is Froggish for fox.Having lived in Seattle I can confirm that it is a moonbat hive, not quite as bad as Berzerkly perhaps, but still insufferable.
“It wasn’t that bad a copy. I copied the original and then faxed the copy. Just like Karl told me to. Don’t exaggerate. “
Wronwright, if you keep blabbing secret operational details like that it will be very difficult for you to get that crucial promotion above the 31st degree in the Neocon Conspiracy.
Posted by Michael Lonie on 2005 12 08 at 12:39 AM • permalinkLogical isn’t it. I believe the information is correct therefore any forged document that supports it, no matter how amateurish, should be reason to debate the contents.
Therefore, a neo-Nazi waving the Protocols of the Elders of Zion should feel the right to have the contents debated because, even if it “might” be a forgery, he considers the content is beyond reproach.
Facist
In
TrainingNeeds some
Special
High
Intensity
TrainingBefore becoming a
Nasty
Evil
Oily
Conniving
Onanistic
NaziPosted by thefrollickingmole on 2005 12 08 at 08:03 AM • permalink46 Mr Critical
they’re STEALTH HELICOPTERS and were supposed to be left flat black.
I blame management for this pecadillo! The evil neocon prankster who issued f.i.t.2nd Wronwright all that Turtle Wax may be not entirely without blame here. Unless, of course, it’s one of the scarier members of the upper echelon, in which case they were no doubt just testing him and he should have known better. Yes, that’s it. That damn Wronwright, I blame him all over again. Good then. I feel less bad about leaving that mess of empties in his basement, plus breaking half the blades on this keyhole saw of his.
Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2005 12 08 at 12:54 PM • permalinkTim, I have in my possession an e-mail from Ho Chi Minh to John Kerry thanking him for his help in defeating America in Vietnam.
Now, there is a possiblity that it is forged since Ho Chi Minh died before the end of the war and long before Al Gore invented the Internet.
But it is indisputable that Kerry did indeed help break the will of the American people to continue and that is what the debate should have been about.
Posted by Just Some Poor Schmuck on 2005 12 09 at 03:55 AM • permalink
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