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Cathy Seipp:

One of the great paradoxes of our time is that two groups most endangered by political Islam, gays and women, somehow still find ways to defend it.

A tip for pro-Islam leftists: when next you feel the need to defend political Islam, just imagine you’re defending anti-gay, anti-abortion, Darwin-opposing southern US creationists. You may be surprised at the change in your thinking.

Posted by Tim B. on 03/02/2006 at 11:42 AM
  1. You may be surprised at the change in your thinking.

    That assumes that the lefties are thinking in the first place.  Sometimes I wonder about that.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 03 02 at 12:08 PM • permalink

  2. Jeffs - They don’t think, they feeeeeell! You know, let you emotions define your intellect. They are kind of like the dark side in the Star Wars story.

    Posted by JEM on 2006 03 02 at 12:12 PM • permalink

  3. #1, 2 Beat me to it. But in case you believe Lefties “think”, be assured nothing will change their views as they are based on delusions which they cannot give up. The Motto: Live Deluded or Die.

    Posted by stats on 2006 03 02 at 01:14 PM • permalink

  4. Seipp is dead on. I was standing in line at a bookstore today and this bird walks past wearing a t-shirt saying “ISLAM IS OK!” (with the OK! part in hyoooge pink characters). wtf? She wasn’t noticeable ethnic either, just your average whitebread skippy chick.

    As usual, Reagan was right - those who have the most to lose, do the least to prevent its happening.

    Posted by benson swears a lot on 2006 03 02 at 01:28 PM • permalink

  5. No brainer. Bush opposes Islamofascim, ergo, Islamofascism is good. To borrow from (I believe) H.L. Mencken, and to alter the original context, if Bush came out strongly against cannibalism today, tomorrow the aluminum chapeaus would be calling for the export of missionaries to cannibals. The twisted perspective of Bush Derangement Syndrome - for which, sadly, there appears to be no cure.

    Posted by paco on 2006 03 02 at 01:29 PM • permalink

  6. #3 stats

    in case you believe Lefties “think”, be assured nothing will change their views


    stats, you are wrong. It is possible to change their views. I can tell you this because I am an ex-lefty msyelf. I know others too.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 03 02 at 02:43 PM • permalink

  7. #6 Daddy Dave, you are correct and I stand corrected. Many examples come to mind, in my own family, no less. Must recondiser my own thinking on this.

    Posted by stats on 2006 03 02 at 02:49 PM • permalink

  8. daddy dave, I too was once a left-leaning person, although I hesitate to call myself an ex-leftie (I voted for Reagan, both times, huzzah!, and then Clinton, both times, oh crap!). 

    But it is possible to get lefties to think….if you can force them out of their Gorebot programming and emotive conditioning.  Sometimes, though, you can’t tell if the person is actually thinking, or just following their source code.  They are the scary ones.

    Posted by The_Real_JeffS on 2006 03 02 at 02:56 PM • permalink

  9. “Sometimes, though, you can’t tell if the person is actually thinking, or just following their source code.  They are the scary ones.”

    Absolutely first-rate observation, RJ. People who (a) can think, (b) can maintain some degree of objectivity, and (c) are honest with themselves, as well as with others, can, indeed, move from an unsound to a sound (or at least, less unsound) position. It is the people with hidden agendas, hard-wired manias, and prejudices bred in the bone who are impervious, not only to reason, but, all too often, to basic notions of fairness and humanity.

    Posted by paco on 2006 03 02 at 03:02 PM • permalink

  10. so about this paradox. It’s pretty simple really. There are three pieces to the jigsaw puzzle. A principle, a factoid, and an imperative.

    A leftoid principle is “Stand up for the oppressed.” You should always be looking around, trying to figure out who is getting screwed by the bullies of the world. When you figure it out, go to their defense.

    A Leftoid factoid is: “Muslims are suffering because of the actions of a couple of criminals (i.e., al-Qaida). In other words, Muslims are being persecuted for their religion.”

    A leftoid imperative is: if you are an oppressed minority, e.g., gay, female (I know… they’re not really a minority but bear with me), then you are strategically and morally obliged to team up with other oppressed minorities.

    What do you get when you put all this together? Gays and women supporting Islam.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 03 02 at 03:16 PM • permalink

  11. One of the great paradoxes of our time is that two groups most endangered by political Islam, gays and women, somehow still find ways to defend it.

    I believe we have all said, or thought the same, in so many words.

    The answer is a combination of all that has been posted here.

    The Left, regardless Gay, Women, BDS sufferers, etc., etc….have the collaboraters and enablers of the Left, the MSM drumming the constant, U.N. and John Kerry’ish thought of…‘They are poor misunderstood souls, that we (the U.S. and the Western world) need to understand, appreciate and find common ground, talk and that everything that Bush has done or is doing, has caused this’

    These people cannot get through their brains, (if they have any) that these Islamic-Psychopathic bastards, and those of Islam that remain silent…have been doing this terror stuff, for a damn long period of time. It didn’t start with Bush, NOR will it end with Bush.

    The Left is convinced that they (the Left) will be the last eaten. The pisser part is, forget the enablers and collaboraters of the MSM, these Islamists are using the freedoms, laws and civilites of the Western world, to subvert it.....and the real pisser is, the rest of of just sit on our asses and watch it coming about.

    Posted by El Cid on 2006 03 02 at 03:20 PM • permalink

  12. On this subject….

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/

    FEMINISTS AND WOMEN IN IRAN [Kathryn Jean Lopez]

    Matthew Yglesias links to feminists talking about human rights in Iran to say that feminists are not all silent on such things and that I don’t know what I’m talking about. Of course there are feminists talk about real human rights (and right about now is the big U.N. confab on women, so this is a time for such things). But how often? How loudly? They are listened to and yet what do we usually hear them talking about, and the loudest?

    Unfortunately though—and tell me if this is an unfair perception on my part—when you think of NOW and co., do you immediately associate them with fighting realhuman-rights outrages or do you hear OH NO SAM ALITO WILL TAKE AWAY OUR RIGHTS? I know which press releases and sound bites I’m routinely bombarded with. I know which march on Washington (a.k.a. pre-2004 Democratic Convention) I was at.

    Yesterday President Bush talked about girls in Afghanistan who are able to go to school for the first time. If I were the head of one of these groups that purports to speak for women I would have given him an award for the liberation of Afghanistan from the Taliban. And for challenging the U.N. and the nations of the world to take on sex slavery. Instead, they tell me he is waging a war on women.

    Posted by El Cid on 2006 03 02 at 03:53 PM • permalink

  13. #11

    The Left is convinced that they (the Left) will be the last eaten

    actually the Left don’t believe there will be any eating at all. To them, Islamism is not a threat. any violence on the part of Muslims is an understandable reaction to the oppression they are experiencing from the West. they are nice, peaceful people who are forced to take extreme measures.

    What has to happen is that this bubble needs bursting. I thought the Motoons would do it, especially with the direct contrast with Serrano’s Piss Christ. But it didn’t, at least not for many. “There’s wrong on both sides,” I was recently told.

    That’s because they still see the issue as religious and racial oppression. The Left believe that a racial minority was protesting against racist caricatures. And that’s something they understand and can relate to.
    But in reality, a (Theocratic) political movement was protesting against political cartoons.

    Islam is a religion. Islamism is politics.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 03 02 at 04:25 PM • permalink

  14. 13 actually the Left don’t believe there will be any eating at all. To them, Islamism is not a threat.

    Guess you are spot on in your assessment. After all a goodly bit of the ‘thinkers’ on the Left, do live in close proximity to Disneyland.

    Posted by El Cid on 2006 03 02 at 04:41 PM • permalink

  15. The gay left must hate mainstream society that much as to align themselves with political Islam.  It shows their logic must be in an evolutionary state of flux, the same can be said of the Evil men of Islam.

    Posted by Howzat on 2006 03 02 at 05:43 PM • permalink

  16. Daddy Dave 13

    The Left believe that a racial minority was protesting against racist caricatures. And that’s something they understand and can relate to.

    Hmp.  I’ll meet ya half way ... they CAN relate to it.  They don’t seem to have a very clear understanding of it, though.

    Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 03 02 at 05:51 PM • permalink

  17. Hi 11:
    The terror is in the context of their texts and not the Wests suppression contrary to the assertions made by the Brothers.


    Don’t forget, I’m brainstorming here, that the koran texts are from the Religious and Social Context of 7th Century in the Middle East. The text are repeated into communities without Critical thinking of the current times and are now spewed into mainstream Western ideologies, which clash. Let’s face it, it’s easy to critique the West while you live in there and still use all the knowledge and gnosis.


    Matthew 7:15
    Is the Da vinci code for Is-lambs? lol
    Was Mo an imposter? Did he have ?

    “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravaging wolves.

    mmmmm… ??

    Today’s recommended Islambeee movie watch today is The DVD “Osama”.
    A 12-year-old Afghan girl and her mother lose their jobs when the Taliban closes the hospital where they work. The Taliban have also forbidden women to leave their houses without a male “legal companion.” With her husband and brother dead, killed in battle, there is no one left to support the family. Without being able to leave the house, the mother is left with nowhere to turn. Feeling that she has no other choice, she disguises her daughter as a boy. Now called ‘Osama,’ the girl embarks on a terrifying and confusing journey as she tries to keep the Taliban from finding out her true identity.

    This persons life in the movie,is true to koran Islamic text, how miserable it is literally. Now place this in context to the west and Islamization.

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 03 02 at 05:53 PM • permalink

  18. they CAN relate to it.  They don’t seem to have a very clear understanding of it, though

    agreed.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 03 02 at 06:33 PM • permalink

  19. I keep geting into conversations, in real space and cyberspace, about “what does al-Qaeda want.”  When I speak with a leftist, they always go into this “we need to understand better” song.

    I say we do not have to understand what the ISlamacists want, because they TELL US explicitly what they want.  And when they get into power, you see, sometimes slowly and creeping and sometimes overnight, what they want.

    Posted by Room 237 on 2006 03 02 at 06:52 PM • permalink

  20. #6 I must admit I wrote #3 while feeling savage and ravaged having missed a fine lunch. I’ve thought the matter over and still agree with you, of course. Now that I’ve eaten after stalking the woods with my dogs, my mind has cleared and I must affirm that I wasn’t speaking of individuals but those leftoid weirdo (political) organizations like NOW, ACLU, Gay Activists, ANSWER, the organizations that support media whores like Cindy Sheehan, Kos, etc. etc., and the business organizers that make money off the looney left like Mike Moore, Moveon.org, Jesse Jackson, et. al. Some indivuals in these organizations can eventually come to recognize the hypocrisy inherent in these groups, as well as the savagery of their activities against the poor and downtrodden, as some in my own family have come to realize. Once becoming apostates in the eyes of these lunatic groups, every attempt is made by these groups to humiliate them publicly and to discredit them in every way. Does this sound like what was done to ex-communists who attempted to expose the vicious and traiterous ways of the USA Communist party? (Example: Chambers.)

    Posted by stats on 2006 03 02 at 06:53 PM • permalink

  21. #20 stats- we are in agreement. If you want to convince PETA or Greenpeace to change from within, you’re asking for an ulcer. Mike Moore will die spouting the same views he has today.
    What can change is the amount of public support these groups have. Not every Leftist has the same level of conviction about every Left cause as Mike Moore does. If you find the right wedges you can pick ‘em off, one by one.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 03 02 at 07:02 PM • permalink

  22. It will be interesting to see who the Gay & Lesbian Mardi Gras lampoon tomorrow evening, apart from the regulars such as John Howard and Fred Nile.

    I thought the Mardi Gras went broke, having a similar business model to Margo’s Webdiary.

    Posted by Stevo on 2006 03 02 at 07:21 PM • permalink

  23. The hardcore left can’t change…  those who think Stalin was just misunderstood, those who still mourn the loss of the soviet union (even with all its crimes revealed), those who see the West as the satanic imperialists and source of all wrong….

    little individuals may sometimes change, but these hard core types who often compose and lead these lefty groups, u could count on one hand who have had an epiphany….  don’t hold your breath waiting for Moore, Chomsky or people like Ward Churchill to wise up…

    Posted by casanova on 2006 03 02 at 07:35 PM • permalink

  24. #22 Stevo. You can rely on them not lampooning any of our local “gay-loving” imams however nuns will still be regarded as fair game.

    Posted by Lew on 2006 03 02 at 07:37 PM • permalink

  25. I see 50 million people who can vote now, when they couldn’t before.
    I see an end to a particularly odious Theocratic opression.
    I see and end to a particularly noxious Dictatorship.
    No more Rapes, Murders, Killing Fields, stoning of feminists and gays.

    That’s on one hand.

    On the other, I see politico-religious hacks attempting to silence scientists.
    I see the encouragement of homophobic and transphobic behaviour.

    One of these things is not like the other. While I criticise the worrying politicisation and paleocon agenda that’s creeping in to Australian and US society, for God’s Sake, let’s keep a sense of proportion here!

    Bush and Howard aren’t perfect. Both have caused me personally some significant problems, and the problems are getting worse. It’s a funny feeling to realise for the first time in my life I’m genuinely being persecuted on religious grounds for a medical condition, and by people who I’ve always respected in the past. But compared with the Great Good they’ve done, honesty compells me to say that the Bad Stuff(tm) in the big picture is trivial.

    The Lefties have been too busy bashing Bush and Howard for what they are, not what they’ve done, so the real (but relatively minor) problems get lost in the noise of Anti-American Racism and the bleatings of the Fashionistas. And instead of recognising the enormous Feminist and Gay objective accomplishments Bush and Howard have been responsible for, those accomplishments are not merely unrecognised, they’re criticised by those who should be applauding them.

    I just want to put the Liberal back in the Liberal party. Because with the state the Australian Labor Party is in, and the US Democrats too, any sane choice for the foreseeable future has to be between the Left wing of the Liberal or Republican parties, and the Right wing of the same.

    South Park Republicans or Jurassic Park Republicans.

    Posted by Zoe Brain on 2006 03 02 at 07:48 PM • permalink

  26. #23

    The hardcore left can’t change… those who think Stalin was just misunderstood


    of course that’s true: figureheads of a movement have too much invested to ever admit they are wrong. but so what.

    u could count on one hand who have had an epiphany


    Casanova, if that’s what you really think, then there is no point in engaging in social debate. Tim should close up this site. You can pack up your keyboard and go home. Let’s all get into little clubs of people that agree with each other and bitch about everyone else.
    But there is a point. Sure, Mike Moore (for example) will never admit he’s wrong, but people are watching and listening.

    little individuals may sometimes change

    who isn’t a “little” individual? Democracy is all about little individuals.

    Posted by daddy dave on 2006 03 02 at 07:51 PM • permalink

  27. It is only under ideal conditions when life is still simple and unconscious enough to follow he serpentine path of instinct without hesitation or misgiving that the compensating function of the unconscious works with entire success. The more civilised and complicated a man is, the less he is able to follow his instincts. His complicated living conditions and the influence of his environment are so strong

    Posted by doleblogger on 2006 03 02 at 08:27 PM • permalink

  28. hey 17 ! Hey 15!

    Posted by doleblogger on 2006 03 02 at 08:38 PM • permalink

  29. Well, gays can have a good time in Islamic societies, as long as they are discreet. Gay relationships are very common and are privately accepted and tolerated, if publicly condemned. It’s the women I feel sorry for.

    Posted by mr magoo on 2006 03 02 at 08:46 PM • permalink

  30. Indeed, why is it that people who have made public display legally forced public acceptance of their lifestyle an issue of human rights suddenly so reticent when it comes to Islamist sensibilities?  Just a coincidence, I’m sure.

    Posted by Max on 2006 03 02 at 08:51 PM • permalink

  31. You’re wrong- since when did Southern Baptist run around in big groups branishing Ak47s, RPGs, and blow up cafes, school buses with suicide bombers?

    Posted by Wylie Wilde on 2006 03 02 at 10:15 PM • permalink

  32. hey, Italy says the Soviets tried to kill the Pope. I’d believe it.


    Too much vodka in that country!

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 03 02 at 10:50 PM • permalink

  33. Sheeeeit, after 40years of watching African-Americans embrace the religion of THE PEOPLE WHO SOLD THEIR ANCESTORS INTO SLAVERY, I’ve given up hope of the left ever significantly changing their opinions…

    Posted by richard mcenroe on 2006 03 02 at 11:15 PM • permalink

  34. They can change it if they choose. It’s a democracy. OOps not Mugabe’s land though, he had to buy his own newspaper.

    Posted by 1.618 on 2006 03 03 at 12:47 AM • permalink

  35. I have just been watching a promotional advert for monday nights Today Tonight show 6.30pm channel 7 Sydney.  It is about a guy called Mohammed and he appears to fit the usual description of PARASITE.  Several wives all by design to dupe the stupid welfare system, he is supposed to own three properties all paid for by the Australian taxpayer.  While we on the subject of this crap system that allows this sort of ethnic bias, I must also mention the Western Sydney university that has two muslim prayer rooms one for male and the other for females, but when the Christian chaplain needs a room there is never one available at call.  The day after the 9/11 attacks the Muslim students at Berala High school were all celebrating and cheering in the schoolyard.  The teachers wanted to put a stop to this and explain how wrong this terrorist attack was, the NSW Education Dept. told the teachers to let the children celebrate and not to mention it in class.  This sort of local level appeasement has to be stopped. We in Nsw can make a difference next March and start by getting rid of the state Labor goverment.

    Posted by Howzat on 2006 03 03 at 04:36 AM • permalink

  36. u could count on one hand who have had an epiphany

    Casanova, if that’s what you really think, then there is no point in engaging in social debate.

    I do believe casanova was strictly speaking about the leader types there, so I don’t think you two were in disagreement.

    Posted by PW on 2006 03 03 at 06:27 AM • permalink

  37. o/t Wemdy Harmer deserts the sinking good ship Vega….
    she and the programme producer found they were “both going in different directions..”

    Posted by crash on 2006 03 03 at 08:46 AM • permalink

  38. The reason behind the contradiction we’ve been discussing can be summarized in one sentence: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

    Posted by ErnieG on 2006 03 03 at 09:26 AM • permalink

  39. “I do believe casanova was strictly speaking about the leader types there, so I don’t think you two were in disagreement.”

    Maybe, maybe not. There are paleocons who post to neocon websites, and they can be identified by their blanket condemnations of everyone who ever had a single liberal thought… especially neocons, who are former liberals by definition.

    Pat Robertson was the original “idiotarian,” after all.

    Posted by Tatterdemalian on 2006 03 03 at 12:32 PM • permalink

  40. #33
    watching African-Americans embrace the religion of THE PEOPLE WHO SOLD THEIR ANCESTORS INTO SLAVERY

    Maybe because the only people who cared enough about them to help eliminate slavery were of that religion - from the fanatic, John Brown, who took the law into his own hands, to abolitions like Harriet Beecher Stowe, to William Wilberforce who almost singlehandedly ended the slave trade in Britain, to Abraham Lincoln, the Great Emancipator himself.

    Posted by Newman on 2006 03 03 at 09:08 PM • permalink

  41. #33
    I assumed you meant Europeans when you spoke of the people who sold the Africans into slavery, because I believe it was the Portuguese who started shipping the first slaves to the Americas, and the British were among the worst offenders later on.

    Maybe you meant the Muslims, which is a different matter. The Arabs quit slavery reluctantly only after economic pressure from the Western powers. Saudi Arabia only gave up slavery in the 1960’s. Sudan and Mauritania still enslave black Africans.

    Posted by Newman on 2006 03 03 at 10:29 PM • permalink

  42. 40.  Could be wrong but methinks Mr. McEnroe were referring to Islam, which quite a few African Americans have embraced in the last 40 years or so (to wit: Elijah Muhammed, Muhammed Ali, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, etc) and who were the slavemasters of Africa.  Still are I reckon.

    Posted by Vanguard of the Commentariat on 2006 03 03 at 10:30 PM • permalink

  43. Good on ya Newman.  Got it in two!

    Posted by Vanguard of the Commentariat on 2006 03 03 at 10:31 PM • permalink

  44. #43 Vanguard

    Thanks! I was slow, but I still made it just under the wire.

    Posted by Newman on 2006 03 04 at 04:01 AM • permalink

  45. Zoe, I thought Australians were a bit more broad minded than to hassle or discriminate against you in the 21C.  But it’s probably not the case, as you’ve mentioned.  I learnt early in my life about friends and family who didn’t fit in to the notion of the typical family.  And understood.  I think of people as people and not their sexuality.

    My earlier post was about the politicisation of sexuality, where Howard is a target of sexually based groups.  I agree, he has a lot to be lauded for his 10 years as PM, but his government has to deal with many other issues, some very outstanding. But in a two horse race, Howard has passed the post by several lengths.

    I don’t think the lefts and rights or in-betweens are any saviour.  Let’s deal with who we have.  Time and our secular society will.  BTW, Australia is a fucking great country!  That sentence is for those who mightn’t know.

    Posted by Stevo on 2006 03 04 at 08:08 AM • permalink

  46. Are the pro-Islam left SO dumb that someone has to point this out to them???
    The problem with the left in general is the reflexive, mindless nature of their outrage. Whatever the white, Christian West is for, they are automatically against. That is precisely why they’re perpetually on the wrong side of history!

    Posted by Brian on 2006 03 04 at 10:33 PM • permalink

  47. What’s this?  Are you people saying that “athiest” weren’t responsible for slavery?  That can’t be right!

    Posted by Stoop Davy Dave on 2006 03 06 at 07:05 PM • permalink

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